March 24/04 Report continued – Part 2

7. Motions

7.1 Selection Committee - Citizen Appointments

(http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-
reports/council/2004/Mar24/M%20O%20T%20I%20O%20N-Selection.pdf)

Collins : "And, members of Council, the next matter is Item 7.1 on a motion by Councillor Whitehead respecting Citizen Appointments from the Selection Committee. Councillor Whitehead may I have your motion."

Whitehead : "Moved by myself, seconded by Councillor Morelli: That Selection Committee Report 04-002(a) be amended by adding the following Citizen Appointments as Item 3;

Item 3(a) That the following 5 citizens be appointed to serve on the Hamilton Conservation Authority, for a term to expire with the current term of Council or until such time as a successor is appointed; The names are in front of everybody:

• Chris Firth-Eagland
• James Howlett
• Sergio Manchia
• Jeff Moore
• Werner Plessl

Item 3(b) That the following 2 citizens be appointed to serve on the Symphony Hamilton Board of Directors, for a term to expire with the current term of Council or until such time as a successor is appointed;

• Catherine Bianco
• Andrea Hill "

Collins (who was Acting Chair of Council, because DiIanni was in Sault Ste Marie to do with Stelco): "Okay it's been duly moved and seconded . . . Councillor Ferguson"

Ferguson : "Mr. Deputy Mayor, I'd like to move an amendment to 3(a). The amendment would be to delete the name of Werner Plessl and insert the name of Mark Shurvin." (just for reference, Shurvin is a current board member of the Hamilton Conservation Authority : http://www.hamrca.on.ca/corporate/aboutus/board.asp)

Collins : "Is that an amendment?"

Whitehead (interjects) : "It's not an amendment."

Kevin Christenson (Clerk) : "Through you, Mr. Mayor, I think the uh . . . I don't know that that's an amendment as such. I think you're changing the intent of the motion itself by deleting and replacing at that point."

Collins : "That's what I thought . . .so what would you suggest - that we take the vote on this item here and if it fails then . . ."

Kevin Christenson (Clerk) : "I suggest for you Mr. Deputy Mayor, that if there's some discussion on the item itself you may want to proceed with the four names that are before you" (i.e. Chris Firth-Eagland, James Howlett, Sergio Manchia, Jeff Moore ) "and refer the other issue back if you are only appointing five or refer the whole issue back to the Selection Committee if there is a will to do so.

Collins : "And, if there's a will to make a decision tonight the process would be"

Kevin Christenson (Clerk) : "to proceed with what you have right now."

Collins : "Okay . . . Councillor Ferguson, I'll come back to you - it seems that that motion's out of order."

(in back ground - and I think it was Braden - asked if the motion could be divided into 3(a) and 3(b))

Collins: "3(a) and 3(b), I can do that. . . On item 3(a) - Councillor Whitehead."

Whitehead: "Just for point of clarity . . . at what point do we get into the actual debate. And, the next question to the Clerk, since we are dealing with personnel issues, is it something that should be in camera."

Collins: "I don't believe it's considered a personnel issue. But, I'll ask in regards to the 'in camera'."

Kevin Christenson (Clerk) : "Through you, Mr. Deputy Mayor, not knowing the details of what the discussion, where the discussion is going to take us here as to why there is a suggestion to delete and replace. I would suggest that it would be appropriate, given that unknown for part of the discussion to move 'in camera.'"

Whitehead: "Well, I put a motion forward and I think it's my motion and the motion is that we . . . from the Selection Committee approved duly by the majority of Selection, which is 9 councillors out of the 16, to move forward with these names - that's the intent of the motion. And, we can get into the debate. And, I'm quite prepared to do so. I think it'd be a slap in the face to the Selections Committee that put a lot of hours and sat through those interviews individually to turn this particular selection back, or to reject anyone of those. It was a very competitive process; There was 27 applicants for it. We have to have turn over at some point in time. This is a group of very capable individuals that was selected by the majority of the selection committee. And, I don't want to open up any wounds. But, I believe this is a sound recommendation. I would ask the Council in respect to the process, in respect to the practice that we do support the Selection Committee on these recommendations."

Collins : "Thank you Councillor . . . Councillor Jackson"

Jackson : "Mr. Deputy Mayor, I fully and strongly concur with what Councillor Whitehead as my Chairman of the Selection Committee has just enunciated. We're heading down a dangerous path in my humble opinion if we start at the council table deciding to make a motion to possibly delete a name, insert a name. I've spent hours along with a lot of my colleagues who are on the Selection Committee, getting to this point. I can tell you what the Conservation Authority, if I recall, it was like a 3 or 4 ballot democratic process. We interviewed, as Councillor Whitehead said, 27 excellent candidates I think all of us struggled. And, I don't think I'm saying anything out of school, when we narrowed it down and narrowed it down to between 8 and 10 candidates outstanding candidates out of the 27. It was an arduous, agonizing decision. And, the selection Committee - that's why it took us minimum 3 if not 4 ballots to get to these five names. And, Mr. Deputy Mayor, I'm just . . . Look, there's been past selection committee recommendations that have come to the council table that I've not been part of and I've supported the selection committee's recommendation because they've spent the hours and the time interviewing. I have not. And, if we're going to start down here, then if this potentially carries, then this will be one that everyone shall remember And, so any of us in the future can insert a name or two that we want to down the road whether we're on the selection committee or not. I strongly urge the support of Councillor Whitehead's motion here tonight, Mr. Deputy Mayor. Thank you very much."

Collins : "Thank you Councillor . . .Councillor Morelli . . ."

Morelli : "Mr. Chairman, Councillor Jackson has spoken very eloquently. We're, you know if we start to fool around with the selection process, we're really asking for big trouble. The problem really is there's always a whole host of good candidates and quite frankly, if we even begin to think of doing this, we're asking for big trouble - BIG trouble. And, I say that with due respect for one's personal wishes. I think somebody mentioned to me, well it's very political. It's political going in and it's political coming out. If this was to occur, tonight, the amendment that's suggested. We're going to open up, 'I'll be back.' And I think that more importantly, though, is this aspect, of you know the Selection Committee works so hard; goes through a gut-wrenching process - openly - and everybody tries to be as truthful as possible. It's not an easy process. And, I'm telling you my experience - 12 years around here, there's lots of things that I'd like to see accomplished and done. And, I'd like to see certain people chosen but obviously it doesn't always work that way. But, it's because they're amongst many good people. And, I think that the 5 that you've place forward here, I don't know them all, but, I know one thing that that Selection Committee works very hard, spends hours going through the process. And, to come in here and try to make an alteration at the last minute is so contra to what we have always done . . .and I'm one that would say to you if it needed to be changed, let's change it. I've been here 12 years and I still haven't seen the need for change; it's not going to be made any better. So, I want to just to reinforce, number one, what has been said that I would not even begin to think about altering the recommendation. I accept them. I want to also take this opportunity to salute Chairman Whitehead who, anyone who handles this job, Mr. Chair, as you well know, it's a thankless job and a tough job and a job that involves a lot of commitment and dedication. And, I really want to strongly endorse his motion. Thank you."

Collins : "Thank you Councillor . . . Councillor Mitchell"

Mitchell : "Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to congratulate Councillor Whitehead, too. He's done an excellent job. I've had the honour of serving on this committee. I will say it is difficult. I don't know all the individuals here either, but they all scored high in my scoring system. So, I don't have a problem per se right now with the 5 that are here. To say that the practice of the last 12 years or what knot of the Selection Committee and how good it's working - that I do question. I do not blame a Councillor for bringing a concern forward because, we will change that selection process in the future. There will be more meetings. There will be talks about terms of office for different things which needs to take place. I think that committee agreed to that. The concern that one councillor has here, I don't think it's about trying to pick somebody else that he or she may want. I think it's about continuity. There's a lot more to this here. I did, as a committee member, bring up the concern that we have a chair and a vice chair of the prestigious Hamilton Conservation Authority that didn't make it back. That concerns me - immensely. It's something that should have been in my mind dealt with - did we want to do that way or not - but the point system democratically brought these five here, I will say that. But, I most definitely, Council colleagues, have a concern about not at least bringing back the chair or the vice chair, here on the perception that it gives to the whole City of Hamilton. So, for that reason, I believe that the structure of how we pick people in the future will have to be corrected. Whether we stay with these 5 or whether we send one name back to committee or vote on it differently, tonight. We have a concern, a justifiable one that I'm concerned about and I will support some kind of change for that reason when it gets discussed further, Mr. Chairman. Because that's just how I feel about the issue and it was done fairly to get to these five, but that other concern was not addressed. Thank you."

Collins: Thank you Councillor, I have not further speakers on this. I'm going to ask . . .(glass dings) Councillor Horwath . . ."

Horwath : Indicated that she was not able to serve on this Selection Committee because of other challenges, but has done so in the past. "So, Mr. Chairman, a comment was brought forward that there wasn't information discussed at Selection Committee and my experience on selection committee has always been that all of the issues in regards to appointments are discussed by Committee, in terms of what ramifications may be of appointing or not appointing long term servers and also, in fact, staff both of the City and often the agency involved provide input and opportunity . . .insights, understanding of mandates and those kind of things to committee members. So, can I just get an understanding, through you Mr. Chairman, to the Chair of the Committee whether there was a full debate on the matters that I've just discussed?"

Collins : "Councillor Whitehead . . ."

Whitehead : "Absolutely, in fact, we had a lengthy discussion - and that's why I asked the Clerk if we need to go 'in camera' but we're not there yet - but we did have a lengthy discussion in regards to the positions currently there; we had a lengthy discussion in respect to continuity. There's over 12 to 14, 15, 16 years of continuity with this list. And, the Councillors that are going back are currently sitting on the Conservation Authority. So the continuity issue was waived. There was an acknowledgement that we need to bring fresh . . . we have to have an opportunity for people who want to donate, commit their volunteer time to a board or commission on behalf of the City of Hamilton - give them that opportunity. If we don't open up positions, then it's a closed door system and that's not the perception that we want to send to the community. We want to let the community know - especially when we have 27 highly qualified individuals that make an application, we want to give them opportunity. By following the suggestions being put forward respectfully, by my Councillor, one of my Councillors, in respect to the amendment, we're moving away from that and we're keeping a closed door system in respect to this process and I want to open it up."

Horwath : "Thanks Mr. Chairman. I'm happy that I've heard that clarification, because that's certainly been my experience and my understanding of what happens during the quite - I believe Councillor Jackson referred to it as - democratic process within the selection committee. Mr. Chairman, I chair the housing board and we had significant turnover this time around. A couple of long-standing members were not appointed and new people from the community, who had showed an interest, were appointed. And, as members of this council will know, who sit on that board, yourself included, Mr. Chairman, it was quite a lively and vigorous debate that we had. Many new thoughts and new issues being explored at the board meeting and I think that's a healthy and positive thing and I . . . for those reasons, as well as for the sheer respect that I have for the process and for the committee . . . the volunteers that serve on that committee and spend all that time will be supporting the recommendation that was brought by the Chair tonight. Thank you."

Collins : "Councillor Braden . . "

Braden : "Mr. Deputy Mayor, I just want to say, that in fact, I'm in favour of the motion [I actually think Councillor Braden is meaning to say he is in favour of the amendment]. But, I don't want people here to think that this is in any way an element of disrespect. So, I have to be able to say that. I wouldn't join one of these committees for the world. Because it's just too difficult to sit through that. So, I admire you for that. But, I would ask also that you respect in a fair and mutually respectful way that fact that I am free at least to make a decision that's different than yours. So, this is not disrespectful. And, you know, I mean if there's anybody that has disagreements with his political mates, it's me - often - on one particular issue, right? And, I gotta live with that, too. That doesn't mean I have a disrespect for you because you're going in a different direction. What I'm interested in, the Conservation Authority in general, taking personalities out - those of you that sit on it part-time, no. It seems to be for some reason very well run. But, that's not news. But, it's important because in fact there's lots of organizations that really aren't run nearly that well. And, another one for example, and I don't know many, I'm just lucky - the Children's Aid Society is really well run. Right? You know I would like to say, respectfully, that I wish we could run our government as well as those things could be run. They're not political; they keep their focus there and they do well. I don't need extra turn-over if in any way I'm putting that at risk. I'm not suggesting these people are putting at risk. But, in fact I really want more of a sure thing - good management and good government of any level is hard to find - especially today. So, I want to move there and I think that's the reason I want to . . I'm saying to you, that's the reason I want to go. But, it would be unfair for you to suggest that I'm not respecting the work that you did. I just want to make that entirely clear. Thank you Mr. Deputy Mayor."

Collins : "Thank you Councillor. I have no further speakers other that myself, again and I would ask Councillor Bruckler take the Chair . . . Councillor Whitehead for a second time, okay . . .Councillor Bruckler if you take the Chair . . . I have to say that I'm going to hold my nose at whatever happens in regards to altering the recommendation that has come before us here tonight. And, in regards to process again - and, I hate constantly talking about that word - I mean we've all - all of us who are on that committee at this point in time, volunteered to be on that committee to go through a process - a democratic process. We have conducted not just hours that has been referenced here tonight, we've conducted days upon days of interviews with citizens across this community and I'll be the first one to say that in regards to the Conservation Authority, we had I'd say probably out of the 27, well over half of them could have been very productive and really could have contributed to the Conservation Authority in one shape or another, one form or another. So, in that context, I understand and I agree that there was some fierce competition for that. But, we went through a process, we went through a process, Mr. Chairman, that we've been through. And, it was quite open. There are no secret votes in this process. And, everybody gets the same amount of votes when we start talking about who's on the list and who we're knocking off and it's grueling, as Councillor Braden pointed out. But, at the end of the day, it's a democratic process that I hope that the committee lives with. And, there are lots of times - there were a couple times tonight, where I have been on the losing end of a vote. In fact, there was one here tonight where I think there were 3 of us on a very lop-sided and I lived with that. I may not like it and I'll complain about it later, but I don't try to derail the process that's been put in place because the process has been put in place by this council. We have determined that we are going to have a selection committee to fill these appointments. And, that selection committee makes recommendations to this council. And so, in that context, it's very frustrating to sit though all of those interviews, to have somebody come forward and say, 'I'm not happy with what happened; I lost that vote and I want to change the situation as it's been presented.' And, I'll tell you if this passes here tonight, I would put a motion later and ask to waive the rules and I would ask somebody to remove me from that committee, because if it's going to be done in this fashion for the rest of the term, then I don't want to be a part of it, because I'm not going to waste my time. And, that's what I feel it has been, if in fact this passes - it's a giant waste of time. And, I think, not only does it do a disservice to this council and the process, but it does a disservice to all those people who've come in and been before the committee and who've taken time out of their work days to appear before us. So, that having been said, Mr. Chairman, I'll at this point in time, take back the Chair, and I'll have Councillor Whitehead speak."

Whitehead : "Thank you. When I got elected, one of the criticisms was that at council people come in with a pre-determined mind-set. I know I walk into a councillor's office and I see check marks, by names. So, I don't know if we're speaking to the wall, here. I don't know you are listening. I think a number of you already have your mind made up. It doesn't matter what I say. It was a process that you weren't involved with, if you're not part of the Selection Committee. It's a grueling process. There's a lot of resumes we went through. We had the debate. There's 9 councillors that sit on the selection committee - the majority supported this recommendation. If you want to chose to circumvent that process, I'll respect the decision of this council. But, I will resign, myself as the chair and step away from this process. Thank you."

Collins : "Further speakers on this issue. I have . . .a request from Councillor Powers to separate both [3](a) and [3](b) and I have a call for a standing recorded vote. I'll ask that on 3(a) first. All those in favour of 3(a) please stand . . . with all the names that have been presented. I'm separating the motion as per Councillor Powers' request. (can hear someone in background: "all the names?") 3(a) is with all the names, yep."

Yeas: Collins, Horwath, Jackson, McHattie, Morelli, Whitehead

Nays: Braden, Bruckler, Ferguson, Kelly, McCarthy, Mitchell, Pearson, Powers

MOTION 3(a) is DEFEATED

Collins : Okay, 3(a)'s defeated . . . on 3(b)

CARRIED

Collins: "It carries . . . Councillor Jackson . . ."

Jackson : "Well, Mr. Deputy Mayor, 3(a)'s defeated, so all 5 names have gone down the toilet - where does that leave us with the Conservation Authority, Mr. Deputy Mayor . . . are we to go back to the Selection Committee and re-interview all 27? Can I have some direction please"

Collins: " I'm not sure Councillor, it's really not my initiative. So, I'd ask those people who defeated that to maybe come up with an answer."

Jackson: "Somebody can give me an answer, please?"

Collins: "That'd be great actually, yeah. Councillor Ferguson?"

Ferguson: "Mr. Mayor, I would move that the following 5 people sit on the Hamilton Conservation Authority: Chris Firth-Eagland, James Howlett, Sergio Manchia, Jeff Moore and Mark Shurvin."

Collins : "You're adding the name Mark Shurvin, is that correct . . .okay . . Councillor Morelli on the motion that's been put by Councillor Ferguson - do you have a seconder on that, Councillor? . . . Councillor Bruckler."

Morelli : "I would like each name brought forward separately, please. If it's 5 forward, then let's do them individually - for the sake of the process"

Collins : "I can surely, yep. On the motion, Councillor Horwath."

Horwath : "Well, Mr. Chairman, I'm just kind of not sure, I'm not sure where this leaves us in terms of having a solid understanding of what the selection process it supposed to do for this council and this community. And, I'm a little bit disturbed about that. And, I need to understand whether the majority of Councillors around this table are going to come back and recommend a new process, or whether you would actually put yourselves on as the new Selection Committee, because obviously whatever you decide as a group - regardless of the process that was put in place by the Committee is what's going to happen in terms of the remainder of all of the appointments for the rest of the term. And so, I would actually ask that somebody step up to the plate and take the responsibility - those members that are here of going through the next three years of interviews of hour upon hour upon hour, day upon day upon day upon day. Or, just do away with the selection process an have those applications go directly to those people and you guys can all get together in a room and decide who you want on all the committees. Mr. Chairman I really am shocked and disappointed by the decision that was made but I will live with it, only if we decide how to alter the existing selection process in a way that makes the people around this table happy with being able to decide outside of a democratic process who gets selected. It's extremely nasty and political in my opinion what happened tonight and I think those people need to take responsibility then here on in to do the selection process, Mr. Chairman. So, I don't know whether that's a motion required for that. But, I would ask that they take that responsibility on. Thank you."

Collins: "Further speakers on - Councillor Whitehead, Councillor Morelli. Councillor Whitehead."

Whitehead : "Well, I'm really disappointed with some of my colleagues, here. But, you know, I already saw the vote on Murray's blotter, in regards to, so obviously, no one listened to the debate. If that's how close-minded this Council's going to be in regards to issues, we've got a long way to go - we really do. It's really saddening to see that one Councillor who wishes to get a person, to circumvent a process, can convince, without debate, without people being involved in or sitting in on the process, to unilaterally make the decision. I'm really disappointed - 'cause if that's how you rule here, let us know now. This is not democracy. You know what's funny, the perception at City Hall of the general public was and what the, some of the outlying Councillors prevailed, was there's an old culture at City Hall and it's the old Councillors of the former City of Hamilton, that's part of that political culture. I want people to take a look at how the vote went tonight. I want people to take a serious look at how the vote went tonight". . . (tape stopped, Whitehead asks about whether or not need to go in camera) "personell issues at this point I need a ruling because I certainly want to get into why Mark Shurvin is not sitting on the Conservation list as the motion was originally put. So, I need some clarification on this.

Collins : "I think, Councillor, the suggestion from our Clerk's Department was that if you're going to talk about personalities and the, and any issues related to the people who are on the list that we should go into camera. And so, Mr. Clerk, if I'm mistaken in that, can you correct me?"

Kevin Christenson : "I'm sorry if you're talking about the, the

Collins : "personalities"

Kevin Christenson : "moving in camera, if it's a, if you're going to get into issues, I would suggest that if they're identifiable individuals, I guess you need to move in camera."

Collins : "So, "

Whitehead : "So, I move that we go into camera."

Collins (heard off someone else's microphone): "Well, I do have a speakers list here."

Whitehead : "'kay"

Collins (again, heard off someone else's microphone): "Do you want to hold off on that and I can come back to you?"

Whitehead : "Sure."

Collins (microphone is on now): "Councillor McHattie."

Indicates to Whitehead that if personalities are going to be talked about (I think here in reference to Shurvin) then Clerk suggests to go in camera

McHattie : "Mr. Deputy Mayor. The name has been put forward, Mark Shurvin, has done a tremendous job for the Conservation Authority over the last number of years as the Chair of the Authority. As has the deputy Chair who was also not brought forward this time around. I had conversations with a number of my fellow Councillors and I, I, you know I was disturbed that Mark Shurvin wasn't chosen - primarily 'cause of the continuity in the job that he has done. However, I was very much swayed by the discussion of process that we have here and the integrity of the selection process has to be maintained. And I would hope that what's happened here tonight is not irreversible, that we can perhaps continue to have a bit more discussion and that we can get some leadership from some of the other Councillors who voted against this list to maybe consider, reconsider their decision. I think what we're seeing here tonight is much larger than this particular list. It's a questioning of the process that we follow here at City Hall. And, the people out there are watching. And, they're wondering what's going on. So, although the list may not have been the list that I would have chosen. I wasn't on the Selection Committee and I, I , and I know it's a hard job and the process has to be respected. Obviously, Mr. Shurvin has done a great job for the Authority and I know him quite well, as an individual. And, I know Frank McIntyre the Deputy Chair, as well. He also did a fantastic job, but the Committee decided to choose others. And, we're divided on this one. And, this is where consensus would be perhaps a much better decision-making process than the voting process we use here. And, if we have to go into camera to have that kind of discussion, then I'd like to do it 'cause I think the integrity of the process is something we need to deal with. We've heard that the Chair of the Selection Committee, Councillor Whitehead, is considering stepping down from that position as a result of the decision tonight. That would be, that would be a tremendously bad thing to happen. It would be something we don't want to see happen here at all. So, I would just leave those comments with my fellow Councillors."

Collins : "Thank you, Councillor. I have Councillors Morelli, Mitchell and Jackson. Councillor Morelli."

Morelli : "Mr. Chairman, I want to make it very clear that I, that this is not about the people involved. I think that it's process. I know Mark Shurvin very well and he's a wonderful, wonderful student of the game. So, I really think though Councillor McHattie has put it very well. The integrity of this process is very clear. I think that we go down this slope, that we've gone down today, we went through a process earlier. I could come here two weeks ago, with the feeling that I, you know, but I thought both individuals were fine and you live with the decision. I think this is really going to polarize us. In fact, you know, it may even send the message to the public that says, you know if you're coming in here looking for a volunteer's job on any committee, you better get your nine lined up and because it doesn't matter what you do, the process isn't really, the process is get the nine. So, I mean, I looked at the list of who voted where, when and how. And how, if it's political, I accept the politics of it, I just think it's a lousy politic, quite frankly, again because of the process, and because all of the people involved are wonderful. There's some great people there - including Mark and Werner and the whole crew. I just have respect - and you know I think it'd be wonderful any changes to the process that you want to bring forward, let's bring 'em forward. Don't think that's the first time that that speech has been given. There's been complaints in the past, but bring 'em forward. If we can make it better, let's make it better. And, I'm going to tell you, what we're doing tonight isn't making it better. That's for sure. And, I think we're sending a terrible message out to the public. And, I think were really polarizing this round table. And, I don't see it as very productive. And again, once again in conclusion, with a solid respect for all the candidates, 'cause this isn't about just the candidates, it's about the process and the integrity of it."

Collins : "Okay, I have a speaker's list, but before we do that I have a motion here that I need moved and seconded to extend the City Council Meeting beyond the 9:00 pm time period and that is invoking rule 3.12(a). Moved by Braden, seconded by Kelly. All those in favour. It carries. Thank you. Next on my list, I have Mitchell and Jackson. Councillor Mitchell."

Mitchell : "Thank you, Mr. Deputy Mayor. Again, I want to praise Councillor Whitehead for his leadership. Yes, it is very much political, a lot of this process, and he lead the way and to some extent shared ideas and taught me too about the point system and how to score people to get the to this. So, he's done a fantastic job. The politics of it was he noticed as well as I and several other Councillors that it did appear that there was pre-decisions made already coming in there. And, we have to learn how to be polite to the applicants that were there and pay attention to their questions and their concerns politely and not be working at computers and doing other things in the middle of the interview process. So, there is some politics there. That's absolutely for sure. And he did a fantastic job at trying to keep everybody focussed. I would say, under the committee structure that we have now, I'm pleased to be under the committee structure. I think it's advantageous to this Council. This committee was chosen to do the work and they did. They brought their recommendation back and it isn't uncommon for the committee structure, when it gets to council, to have the councillors to have a debate, talk about the issues, talk about what happened and make some changes for good reasons. What I hear here is a suggested change for continuity purposes and I don't see anything wrong with that under committee structure to allow the rest of council colleagues to have a vote and have a say on that process. If we're going to go in camera, that's fine. I maybe would have a different choice for that fifth person. But, there's only been one mentioned to vote on tonight. I had ten people tied for five positions, as a lot of the members did. But, I do believe in continuity; I do believe and respect how fabulous the Hamilton Conservation Authority is and I just disagree with having both the Chair and the Vice-Chair leave at the same time. So, in my mind, there's no hidden agenda here. In my mind, the process that we followed has been the committee process allowing all the Councillors to have a say and in closing, I admire my colleague Councillor Whitehead very, very much and I hope, with all my heart, that he does not give up the Chair through this process, because his leadership is needed by this City Council."

Collins : "Councillor Jackson."

Jackson : "Thanks, Mr. Deputy Mayor. Well, this has been a very, very interesting evening on this matter. Like Councillor Morelli, I have nothing against the five that were originally brought forward; I have nothing against the one that's been now inserted. It's interesting that the one that's been inserted is replacing one of the five. So, I don't know why one of the five was chosen out of the other four, but I guess Members of Council have their reasons why they chose the one person out of the five there. One of the previous speakers talks about continuity and yet talks about term limits, possibly in the future. Well that's a double standard if I ever heard one. You want continuity, and yet the one we've inserted probably has the longest term limits of the group of five now in front of us. But, so I guess I don't understand. I'm trying to reconcile two totally different positions that one of the previous speaker has put that way. And, Mr. Deputy Mayor, if we're talking about term limits, we need to look at ourselves. And, I've always said, that I will not impose term limits on our citizens who work hard on the volunteer boards and commissions and agencies that they serve on. Yes, we like to see a mix of veterans and new people coming on. But, until the day comes that there's term limits on elected officials, and a lot of us have served at the pleasure of our constituents for a long time, I find that a double standard for a Member of Council to suggest there should be term limits for citizens when some Members of Council have been around for a long time at the pleasure and at the honour of our constituents. So, Mr. Deputy Mayor, I'll tell you, I don't want to prolong this debate tonight, frankly, I've got nothing against the five that were originally here. I supported that because I was a part of the Selection Committee process that brought it here. If the will of Council is to put this extra one in here tonight, Mr. Deputy Mayor, it's already been embarrassing for the citizens mentioned here. I'm going to reluctantly support it. But, I'll support it, Mr. Deputy Mayor, because this has for me now set a precedent. And, I'm very comfortable in the future, that if I'm not satisfied, with a vote that's come from Selection Committee, and I think somebody else deserves it for all the good reasons that I can bring to this table, I will then ask my Councillor Colleagues to over-turn that Selection Committee process. Thanks, Mr. Deputy Mayor."

Collins : "Thank you. Councillor Ferguson."

Ferguson : "Deputy Mayor Collins, there's been enough embarrassment and some barbs thrown back and forth, and it could really escalate so that, I don't want to see that so I've called the question."

Collins : "On the, well, do I have a seconder"

Whitehead : "Point of order, I've asked to speak in camera on a personnel issue in respect to the selection process. I should at least be granted by my colleagues that opportunity."

Collins : "Okay, well, we've had, he's (Ferguson) called the question, though. So, I called"

Whitehead : "But, I already reserved and I already had that acknowledgement by the chair to do that. So, if you, want me to talk about it now, I'll talk about it now in open session."

Collins : "I think in fairness, despite the fact that I would love to go in camera, Councillor, there wasn't a motion put - you didn't have a seconder at the time. So, if we had a mover and a seconder."

Whitehead : "Well then, can I finish my discussion, cause I was holding off 'til then?"

Collins : "No I have Councillor Ferguson has the floor"

Whitehead : "Well I asked, I asked for my colleagues to hold off so I could speak."

Collins : "Councillor in fairness, I have a motion here . . .I'm going to see if there's a seconder . . ."

Whitehead : "Well, I'm asking, I'm asking my colleague if he can back off so I can speak."

Collins : "I'm going to see if there's a seconder; I'll hold the question - I'll call the question, sorry; if it passes there'll be no other opportunity to speak . . .So, I have a mover to call the question. Do I have a seconder for that . . .Councillor Bruckler, yep, to call the question. All those in favour of calling the question please raise your hands; all those opposed - that carries. So on the motion that's been put before us on item 3(a) and with the name that is to be inserted - all those in favour; all those opposed [motion is carried] I'd like to be recorded as opposed, please." (didn't get names, sorry)

Whitehead : "Mr. Chair for clarification"

Collins : "I would - sorry, Councillor Whitehead."

Whitehead: "There's a significant issue in regards to this individual that we selected tonight "

Collins : "Councillor Whitehead, in fairness . . ."

Whitehead : " . . . that the Council needs to be aware of and I haven't had an opportunity to raise that . . "

Collins : "I understand that, but we have now voted on the issue . . ."

Whitehead : "Could I go in camera then; can I vote to go in camera now?"

Collins : "I could allow that, but we've made a decision."

Whitehead : "Ya, but that's fine, can I go in camera?"

Collins : "We have a motion to go into camera? But, I'm not sure what purpose it serves, but if you have a seconder for that. Is there a seconder for that to go into camera? I don't hear a seconder Councillor, so I'm going to have to move on with the agenda. Councillor Morelli."

Morelli : "Mr. Chairman, only because again, I want to make it clear, I don't know how you define in the record. It' not about the people that I support strongly. I opposed this Motion - the last motion because of what's transpired in terms of the process. Having made that point, where and how do I resign from to selection committee at this point?"

Collins : "And, that was going to be my next question . . . Mr. Clerk do we need a motion to resign from the committee or can we just informally do that . . ."

Clerk : " Through you, Mr. Deputy Mayor, you don't need a motion here, you can send in a resignation to my office indicating that you will be resigning and I will advise Council accordingly."

Collins : "And I, Councillor Morelli, then"

Morelli : "Through you, Mr. Chair, I just want to serve notice with the Clerk, that I will be forwarding my resignation tomorrow. Thank you."

Collins : "I would like to serve the same, please."

Whitehead : "I'd like to serve the same. Thank you."

Collins : Councillor Whitehead may I have a mm uh, on the items that were just passed.

(Whitehead in background from another microphone, his mic. not on - "No, I can't move it. I'm not . . .")

Powers : "I'll move the motion then."

Collins : " Moved by Councillor Powers, seconded by Councillor McCarthy. All in favour, Carries . Is there a report to move there, Mr. Clerk. Or, am mistaken.

Kevin Christenson : "No, Mr. (Deputy) Mayor, that was simply a motion that was added. So, you didn't need a report to . . ."

Collins : "Okay. Sorry. My mistake then. The next item is 7.2 and it's a motion by Councillor Whitehead respecting the removal of stop-signs. Councillor Whitehead ."

Whitehead : "Moved by myself, seconded by Councilor Powers, who is our newly nominated and acclaimed Liberal candidate in Dundas. Thank you very much. . . . and . . . stop removals (I couldn't make out what Councillor Whitehead said and I don't have a copy of the motion, sorry) that the recently installed stop signs for East-bound and West-bound traffic at the intersection of Brigadoon Drive and Graywood Road, be removed. And, that the attached by-law to ? the City of Hamilton traffic by-law 01215 be passed and enacted."

Collins : " All in favour. Carries. Thank you. Next item is 7.3. It's a motion by Councillor Jackson respecting a seniors' web portal. Councillor Jackson."

Jackson : "Thanks, Mr. Deputy Mayor. It's moved by myself, seconded by Ward 3 Councillor Bernie Morelli that in an effort to provide seniors within our community access to information services from all three levels of government and their service providers in a simple, logical, cross-silo fashion, that our Council explore the development of a seniors' web portal for the City of Hamilton, in collaboration with the Federal and Provincial governments and (b) the seniors' advisory committee, of which Councillors Powers, Morelli and I serve on at the pleasure of this Council, be provided with the opportunity to comment on the proposal - if I could just make a quick comment, Mr. Deputy Mayor. This has actually come through the request of Mayor DiIanni's office. Because of his absence here tonight, with his importance and presence in Sault Ste Marie, to help our steel industry. And, I want to say that Councillor Morelli and I and Councillor Powers, attended a session about three, four weeks ago here at City Hall, Mr. Deputy Mayor, lead by MPP Ted McMeekin, who is the parliamentary assistant to the Minister on seniors' issues and with Mayor DiIanni and a lot of our staff from the Information Technology Department, Economic Development Department - our Chief Librarian, Ken Roberts, was there, as well. Mr. Deputy Mayor, this is a wonderful project. It's been a pilot project for the last couple of years in Brockville. It's been a tremendous success. It basically would provide our seniors an opportunity on the website to have access to all information that might help them, in terms of their living, in terms of referrals, in terms of government services and programs that maybe at their disposal. Instead of having to go to this one for local government; instead of having to go to this one for provincial, that one for federal, calling their MPs, MPPs, whatever. So, we want to do this. It's been so successful in Brockville. We want to do this in Hamilton. This motion has no budgetary impact. There's no financial cost. But what Mayor DiIanni has requested - and we're going to get comment from our Seniors' Advisory Committee, 'cause they have been set up, as such to advise this Council. So, that's why I'm asking Council to send it there. But, ultimately, Mr. Deputy Mayor, this will, this will involve simply our staff as resource to help implement this wonderful program that will help access for our seniors and for seniors that aren't computer literate and don't have a website, this still will help them through services through the library and others and get them educated and teach them not to fear a computer or accessing a computer or website for government programs and services. So, Mr. Deputy Mayor, it's at the pleasure and request of Mayor DiIanni that myself and Coucillors Morelli and Powers brought this here tonight. Thanks, Mr. Deputy Mayor."

Collins : "Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Morelli."

Morelli : "Mr. Chairman, I just think this is a very important item for our seniors. Although a number of our seniors are probably not equipped yet to go onto the websites that are available to them, we did at that meeting see the operation as it's being proposed in Bellville. And so, we're going to also, have an opportunity to get some results very quickly. So, it's a terrific synergistic effort by all levels of government. Bellville will be the model. We'll have an opportunity to visit Bellville and see it in operation. So, I think it's a move in the right direction and I salute the governments for this process. It'll allow them very simply to push a button with respect to an item such as whether it be kidney disease or whatever or home care and cross reference every available service at every level of government. So, it's certainly a move in the right direction - one which I think our seniors will really appreciate. Thank you."

Collins : "Thank you Councillor. I have no further speakers on the matter. All in favour - it carries . The next item is 7.4. It's a motion by Councillor Braden respecting the appointment to the Niagara-Hamilton Waste Plan working group. Councillor Braden."

Braden : "Thank you Mr. Deputy Mayor. Moved by myself, seconded by Councillor Mitchell, the appointment to the Niagara-Hamilton Waste Plan Working Group that Councillor Horwath be appointed to the Niagara-Hamilton Waste Plan Working Group - and if I could speak to it for 30 seconds. Councillor Horwath isn't here now, but I know she will stand. This is the group that is not dealing with our local Master Plan. But, this is beyond that. The co-operation we're doing with Niagara. It's a really good group working very well together and I would like to have Andrea on and she said she'll stand. So, that's what it is."

Collins : "Thank you, Councillor. On the motion, all in favour - carries. Thank you . Members of Council, any other motions? No."

8. Notices of Motion

Collins : Any notices of Motion. None."

9. Statement by Members

Collins : "Statements by Members of Council? Any information that you wish to convey to Members of Council and the general public - Councillor Pearson."

Pearson : "Thank you, Mr. Deputy Mayor. I have an announcement that I would like to pass on to the residents in Stoney Creek. There's going to be . . . a special household hazardous waste day in Stoney Creek on Saturday, March 27 from 9:00am to 3:00 pm at the Municipal Offices at the municipal building parking lot . . ."

Collins : "Thank you Councillor. Councillor McHattie."

McHattie : "Just a notice out there, thanks, Mr. Deputy Chair, to residents from Ward 1 and anybody else in the City who would like to attend. I'm planning on having regular Ward 1 . . . community meetings right here in Council Chambers. I'd like to get as many people down here to City Hall as possible and learn what it's like to sit around the Council Chambers and get comfortable with being here - it's where a lot of the decisions are made. So, it's important for people to be here. And the next . . . Ward 1 community meeting is occurring on . . . Wednesday, April 7 . . . and the subject is the future of the CAMCO lands. People will know that the CAMCO property, unfortunately, that CAMCO is shutting down in December of this year and that's a critical site for Ward 1. And, the future of that site is tremendously important and is very much of interest to Ward 1 residents . . . We're going to start off with a presentation from our Manager of Economic Development, Neil Everson . . .he's also going to talk specifically about the economic development strategy that we have for the City - the current strategy we have and the revised strategy that he's working on . . . expertise there from the planning department. We'll talk about brownfields . . . people will have an opportunity to put forth their vision for the CAMCO lands in Ward 1. . .7pm April 7th . . ."

Collins : "Thank you Councillor. Councillor Braden."

Braden : "Back to the Linda Harvey and the sustainable development thing. What I was trying to suggest is, you know we give her certain instruction and she's trying to go back to do certain things. But, I think . . . we could improve our sense of confidence about where we belong if we bring together the strategic plan and Vision 2020. And, there are some things that really aren't in sync. And, I think that this forum is not a very good one for working things out. . . . So, I'm suggesting . . . that maybe that soon as budgets over, we might get her to come back an address us in the hopes to see whether or not this Council would be interested in going to a workshop where we can try to bring those things together so that there is (Collins interjects to quiet the room from chatter). So, I just wanted to sew that seed and I'll bring it back up. A couple of things . . . we just went through that City Hall debate . . . clearly the whole thing was, we don't have the money. What we learned yesterday was the ongoing cost of just the North / South (Red Hill Creek) Expressway - after it's built and paid for - for the rest of your an my life is $8 million per year. Just wanted to mention that fact again. . . we had the implementation committee of the Expressway today - you know who gets chosen as the Chairman. So, it's pretty awkward to be part of the debate when your the . . . acting Chairman . . . But I would like of course to be able to ask the hard questions. So, I just want to ask two hard questions tonight. Not to put staff on the spot tonight, but to get that answer shortly. First question is: What staff member or politician called the Hemson company and asked for the report. I've talked to the Mayor about it -I almost accused him, and he said he didn't do it. So, I'm asking in Council who from this corporation called Mr. Simpson, because he talked about that when he was here and hired him without any terms of reference, without any budget - said go ahead. Who is that person please I need to know that. I've been really asking for that for about six months. . . .if I could that in about 48 hours, I'd be very pleased. It's a simple answer. I'd just like the name, please quickly. I think it's a reasonably question. Thank you."

Collins : "Thank you, Councillor. Any further information from Members of the Committee? No."

10. Private and Confidential Items

None

11. By-laws

Collins : "On the by-laws, Councillor Ferguson may I have a motion on the By-laws."

Ferguson : "Moved by myself, seconded by Councillor Tom Jackson that Bills numbered 04-064 to 04-073 be passed, the Corporate Seal affixed thereto and the by-laws be signed by the Mayor and the City Clerk and numbered as 04-064 to 04-073."

Collins : "All in favour. Is there any discussion on bills number 64 . . .73" (all carried). "Thank you."

12. Adjournment

Collins : "May I have a motion to adjourn? Kelly and Jackson - all in favour. It carries . Thank you."

(adjourn around 9:20 pm)

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