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January 26/05 Report – Part 2 of 4

(Continued from Part #1 that ended at Item 6.3 "Committee Reports - Corporate Administration Committee, Report 05-002, January 19, 2005)

6.4 Strategic Planning and Budgets Committee, Report 05-002, January 19, 2005
(McHattie / Merulla - CARRIED)
(http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
Strategic-Planning-Budgets/2005/Jan19/Rep05-002.pdf)

Mayor DiIanni : "Next Report is from Strategic Planning and Budgets, also a 2 nd Report, recommending Item #1." (hear councillors say carried) "Councillor McHattie may I have a Motion on the Report."

McHattie : "Yes, you may, Mr. Mayor. Moved by myself; Seconded by Councillor Merulla, that the 2 nd Report of the Strategic Planning and Budgets Committee be adopted and the Information Section received."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. All in favour?" (hear councillors say carried) "That's carried."

6.5 Social and Public Health Services, Report 05-001, January 25, 2005 (to be distributed)
(McHattie / Merulla - CARRIED)
(http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
Social-Public-Health/2005/Jan25/Report%2005-0011.pdf)

Mayor DiIanni : "And now, from Community Services we have a 1 st Report. And, it recommends Item #1" (hear talking off microphone) "Sorry, 'Social and Public Health Services Committee' presents its 1 st report and respectfully recommends Item #1" (hear councillors say carried) "#2 . #5" (hear a glass clink and hear councillors say carried) "#5, Councillor McCarthy."

COMMENT ON - " 5. Community Problem Solving Table on Poverty (Item 7.1 [on agenda] )

That Council approve the concept of establishing a Community Problem Solving Table on Poverty;
That the Public Health and Community Services Department be directed to participate in a leadership role with the Hamilton Community Foundation and other community partners;
That in order to provide City support for the Community Problem Solving Initiative, funding in the amount of $107, 700.00, the equivalent of 1.3 FTE be considered, and that the matter be forwarded to the 2005 Budget process for review."

McCarthy : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor, and I'm reading this Report - Community Problem Solving Table on Poverty. I think it's a Motherhood issue. I think that this is something that the City has traditionally been supporting, in terms of social service issues. But, when I was reading the report, I noticed that there is no funding that will continue, beyond the year. Can I ask to Joe Anne Priel, that I've got that right, Joe Anne?"

Joe-Anne Priel - General Manager, Public Health and Community Services : "Through you, Mr. Mayor, it's the discussion on the Problem Solving Table on Poverty. There was no report, it was a verbal - there was no hard copy Report, it was a verbal presentation that I made to Committee earlier in the week. I wonder, Councillor McCarthy if you're referring to the previous report on the Social Development Strategy?"

Mayor DiIanni : "Are you referring to the recommendation before us Councillor McCarthy, Item (c )?

McCarthy : "If you just give me a second, Mr. Mayor, let me just check my notes, here." (Councillor checks her notes) "Oh, I'm ya - the Provincial Best Start Initiative, which is different than that. So, the Best Start Provincial Initiative, when is that on the agenda for tonight? It's the next on, #6 - I jumped the gun."

Mayor DiIanni : "All right, very good. So, on #5, all in favour?" (hear councillors say carried) "#6, Councillor McCarthy, go ahead."

COMMENT ON - " 6. Hamilton as a demonstration site for the Provincial Best Start Initiative SPH05005 (City Wide) (Item 7.2)

That Council support Hamilton's submission of intent to the Province of Ontario for becoming a Best Start Demonstration site.
That Council corresponds with the Ministry of Children and Youth Services to advocate that the Province consider full funding of the Best Start Initiative beyond 2005 and/or provide the Municipality with the ability to mitigate the potential cost sharing increase." (see also Government of Ontario website: http://www.children.gov.on.ca/cs/en/newsroom/newsreleases/041125.htm)

McCarthy : "Thank you . (tape stopped, sorry) ".and we're left funding these programs. And that's primarily where I'm coming from with this. Beware of the beginning of things - they are Motherhood issues; they're good for the community. Nobody in their right mind's going to argue against that. But, what we end up doing is dealing with the financial fallout when the Province bails on us. And, I'm concerned about this and I'm asking for some strategies on how we cope with this next year when we're dealing with again another 50, 60 million dollars that we have to find off of the budget, so that our tax-payers don't pay double digits in tax increases. And, if I can just have some explanation from Joanne, I'd appreciate that."

Joe-Anne Priel - General Manager, Public Health and Community Services : "Through you, Mr. Mayor. The first year of this - I mean, if Hamilton is selected as a demonstration site, then the first year of all funding is, comes from the Province. It's 100% funded."

"Subsequent years, it's very unclear in terms of what funding would be required from the City, if there was going to be any. So, you know, the Councillor raises a good question. That's why the second recommendation was put into the report - that we, at the same time, write to the Province outlining our support for the initiative. But at the same time, outlining our concerns in terms of funding impacts on the City and that we will be unable to meet any further funding obligations unless they remove something from our already over-the-top plate."

McCarthy : "Can I ask through the Chair, to Joe Anne: what is the cost of this for this year, Joe Anne - the Province, what's the Province picking up in terms of financial dollars?"

Joe-Anne Priel - General Manager, Public Health and Community Services : "Through you, Mr. Mayor. At this point in time, we really don't know. They've not given us any identification of what the first year is even going to look like. All they've said is that whatever it does look like, they'll pick up 100% of the cost."

"I mean, at the end of the day, what likely will come to us next year is they're going to increase childcare spaces in this City. Now, the intent is to try and find those childcare spots within the school system, so that there's a smooth transition from SK [Senior Kindergarten] and JK [Junior Kindergarten] and daycare into school. So, likely that's what costs that will be facing us next year in the question about whether we're in the position to fund additional daycare spaces."

McCarthy : "And thank you, Joe Anne. And that's where really I'm coming from. It's really hard to argue against any of these issues, because they are dealing with our youth. They really are 'apple pie' issues. The problem is next year, when the Province does bail on us, and we go again, cap-in-hand, and ask for money to fund what has been started and what's expected in the community. That's when we have the problems. And it's, again, beware of the beginning of things."

"The Province is picking up the tab on this, I have no real argument - why would I? If we're picking up the tab on this, we don't know what the financial implications are to us as a city next year. And that's where my concern is. Thank you."

Mayor DiIanni : "Point well-made. Councillor Ferguson."

Ferguson : "I don't know if it's the same program or not, but I heard a press release, today of Minister Bountrogianni saying a half a million for '05 and a million for '06. Is that the same?"

Joe-Anne Priel - General Manager, Public Health and Community Services : "Through you, Mr. Mayor, I'm not aware of that press release, I can't comment. Was it the announcement she was making at the Children and Adolescents?

Mayor DiIanni : "Ya."

Joe-Anne Priel - General Manager, Public Health and Community Services : "Seems to me that that was services for children and mental health, more mental health related services I think for children."

Mayor DiIanni : "Ya. So, it's not the same program. Can I just make a quick comment and, to Joe Anne. This is the, essentially, the early education piece, isn't it? And I know that Joe Anne's been a very strong advocate of early intervention. I think if you read the literature and if you talk to school teachers and school administrators, you catch problems before they become serious problems, it saves you money in the long run."

"I mean, you know that I support the concern expressed by Councillor McCarthy that the Province will give us programs and pull back its funding, and then we're left holding the bag. But, it seems to me that the Province is intent on putting money towards early start - Best Starts. And, we may as well get in on the ground floor. There is nothing to suggest that we're going to be selected. But if we are, it gives us a leg up on the program that'll come down the road anyway."

"Joe Anne, did you want to make a comment on that?"

Joe-Anne Priel - General Manager, Public Health and Community Services : "Through you, Mr. Mayor. Whether or not, even if we, whether we're selected for the pilot or not, the question will still come to us next year about the additional childcare spaces. This gives us the opportunity to try and design a system that will work for our community, because the Province is going to go ahead, anyways. And, we have a good model in this community that we would like the Province to build on rather than taking it some other direction."

Mayor DiIanni : "Indeed, so it really does help us. Councillor Morelli, did you want to make a comment?"

Morelli : "I would just like to make a brief comment, Mr. Mayor, and that's that Margaret's point is really well-taken, given the fact that the first year, yes, and then the second year if they don't continue - but I can tell you about, I would urge all Council Members to read this brochure, which was put out by the Social Planning and Research Council. And really, in essence, it points to a major shift in terms of poverty in our community; in terms of the increments that we're experiencing - 1 in 4, every 4 th child is living in poverty. And, when you look at the numbers. So, it really, there's a major issue underway in the community. And so, balanced with that, and I have those concerns, as well, is this document really lays out very clearly that there's major issue in this community."

"And obviously, with this kind of ill in the community, it doesn't bode well in terms of - so we need to try and address it and bring some focus to it. And so, it's a difficult problem, but we're getting funding for the first year. And the net is, that I'll take the funding and let's see if we can do something with the problem."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. So, on #6, then, all in favour?" (hear councillors say carried) "That's carried. #7" (hear a glass clink and hear councillors say carried) "#8 Councillor" (hear another glass clink) "Jackson."

COMMENT ON - " 7 Pesticide Sub-Committee Report 04-002 (Item 9.1) Definitions of Precautionary Principle
That the Pesticide Sub-Committee adopts definition "D" of the Precautionary Principle as presented in Table 1 of Report HSC04067 as the policy framework to address the cosmetic use of pesticide on private land as follows;
Option: D
Definition: Where there are threats of serious or irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost-effective measures to prevent environmental degradation.
Pro's : Definition is recognized by Canadian Courts; Has established guiding principles; Defines nature of threat; Recognized risk management tool
Con's : More complex wording may be confusing to some; Requires method for review in light of new scientific information"
(see report: http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
Social-Public-Health/2005/Jan25/Pesticides%20Report
%2004-002%20-%20Oct%2019,%202004.pdf)

AND

COMMENT ON - " 8. The Pesticide Sub-Committee presents Report 05-001 and respectfully recommends:

(a) That the Pesticide Sub-Committee be directed to proceed with a 2005 Municipal Pesticide Community Education Program as outlined in Table 2 of Report HCS04067(a), as attached, up to a maximum of $70,000.00;

(b) That the Pesticide Sub-Committee be directed to hire a consultant to guide the public consultation process up to a maximum of $30,000.00;

(d) That the proposed funding up to a maximum of $100,000.00 resulting from recommendations (a) and (b) be forwarded to Committee of the Whole for consideration during the 2005 City of Hamilton Budget deliberations."

(see report: http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
Social-Public-Health/2005/Jan25/Pesticides%20Report
%2005-001-%20Jan%2019,%202005.pdf)
AMENDMENT TO 8 - ($30,000 for consultant come from Capital Budget; $70,000 for education come from Tax Levy)
(Collins / Jackson - CARRIED)

Jackson : "Mr. Mayor, thank you. Both 7 and 8 involves reports - two reports from our Pesticide Sub-Committee, Mr. Mayor. And, I want to acknowledge our Chairman, Councillor McHattie, along with Councillor Mitchell, and Bruckler and myself, who are members of, from your Council on the Committee."

"And, this is, if you will, our first major recommendation that we're bringing forward, both in item 7 and 8. Item 7 about asking Council to adopt the 'precautionary principle.' And, as defined there if I could just quickly read it out, Mr. Mayor: 'Where there are threats of serious or irreversible damage, lack of full scientific certainty shall not be used as a reason for postponing cost-effective measures to prevent environmental degradation.'''

"And we felt, as a sub-committee, that was important enough, because otherwise, you can prolong the debate on pesticide use from a cosmetic stand point on private lands. And, if you would, it would just leave us in a state of abeyance. We wouldn't basically be even to move forward and take even a baby step in terms of trying to consult with the community and with the stakeholders and our citizens to basically to see exactly where they may stand on the overall issue of pesticide use on private properties both now and in the future."

"And, the second item, which dovetails into it, is basically asking both for an educational component that our staff would embark upon, as well as the sub-committee hiring a consultant to provide independent, impartial beginnings for the work of the sub-committee. Of course, those two items would be referred to our 2005 Budget for overall debate over the next 5 to 6 weeks."

"But, I would strongly urge my colleagues to support this. Councillor McHattie has been terrific in leading us through the initial stages of the process, Mr. Mayor. And, similar to what we've done in other areas, like with he smoking by-laws and other measures, Mr. Mayor, we want to hopefully be in a pro-active, progressive, cutting-edge manner with our community. But, we also want to be sensitive to what people and many people feel is important, in order from the beautification standpoint of our community, to maintain that."

"But, we also know that today, we've learned, over the decade, that particular use of this material; particular use of that material - no matter whether it's legal or not, can still possibly harm us. And, we want to hear from both the industry, to see exactly what type of measures they may offer up, because I've heard from certain parts of the industry that they're looking forward to this process because they may have new ideas, because they want to get ahead of the game, as well - understanding where more municipalities may be going, with the possible, possible pesticides by-law down the road."

"And, as well, we want to consult with our citizenry across every geographic area of this region. We've set up the Sub-Committee's work to, with the consultant hopefully in place, to embark upon consulting with our citizens from both the urban communities, the sub-urban communities and the rural communities to ensure that, at the end of the day, we'll try to provide the best environmental type by-law for our community. It also recognizes the esthetic aspect of many of our citizens that take a lot of pride in their home ownership and their lands."

"But, we have an issue from an environmental standpoint; from a public health standpoint. And, I think it warrants our support, Mr. Mayor, on both items 7 and 8, to at least help us get the ball rolling. Thank you, Mr. Mayor."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you, Councillor. Councillor Mitchell."

Mitchell : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And I can't speak as good as my Councillor colleague, Councillor Jackson. But, I enjoy working with him on this committee, as I have on many other ones. And, I did support this at committee level and one of the concerns, and one of the reasons I supported it was, it is going to Budget deliberations, Mr. Mayor, so we can have a more full discussion there, as well, when we see the big picture."

"A very important part of this, is the educational component. And, I think as was the smoking by-law, all of us were unanimously - staff and committee members - in agreeance that the Province is eventually going to have to step up to the plate over this type of an issue and will have to deal with it in the future."

"I personally believe that there is a place in society for pesticides if used properly. And, I just want my rural Ward to know that the agricultural sector is not affected in any way by this. So, that's a pretty important component to it, as well."

"So, I will support it here, Mr. Mayor. It's something that needs further debate and it needs to be dealt with. And the Province, again, needs to be at the plate, too."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you, Councillor Collins." (heard Councillor Mitchell say off microphone: 'Collins?' as he thought the Mayor was calling him Councillor Collins) "I said thank you, now Councillor Collins." (hear giggles from Council)

Collins : "Thank you. Mr. Mayor I've wanted to ask a question in regards to the $70,000 - understanding that other communities have been through this exercise, in regards to education, is there an opportunity, I'm hoping through the Sub-Committee, that we'd look to those communities who've been through this before us and try to capitalize on some of the information that's been gathered and some of the education programs that have already been created."

"And I would ask, just through you, to our staff will this be part of the Capital Budget or do we foresee additional cost? Maybe that's a question for someone on the committee. This one-time funding it says here. But, education implies it's probably something that's going to be" (hear a glass clink) "sustained over a period of time. This deals, obviously, with 2005, but doesn't speak of, you know, what kind of costs we might expect to incur beyond that."

"Can I get some understanding as to, through you, to Councillor McHattie, as to what the committee had discussed in that regard?"

Mayor DiIanni : "Yes. I do have Councillor Braden, first. But, if you'll cede to Councillor McHattie just to get those questions answered, that'll be great. Councillor McHattie."

McHattie : "Thanks very much, Mr. Mayor. And thanks for the question, Councillor Collins. We, we're actually - the first point I'd like to make is the note here is 'up to a maximum of $70,000' And, that'll allow us to have further discussions over the next couple of weeks or so. So we can actually come to Committee of the Whole during the Budget Session with a more definitive amount, which will reflect what we hope to do."

"But, you're quite right. There's a lot of material out there, already. And, there's certainly no reason at all for us to reinvent the wheel in this context. We're looking at a model the City has used for other programs - water wise comes to mind; the solid waste program where we've actually engaged Green Venture (http://www.greenventure.on.ca/gv.asp) which is - a decade ago, in fact, 10 years in operation - happy birthday to Green Venture - they've been in place and originally set up to be a social marketing arm, really, of the City, to assist us to get - arms length organization - to assist us in getting the educational materials on environmental issues, such as the water wise program out to the community. So, we're having our discussions with Green Venture right now. And they, of course, already have their own material already prepared on pesticide education. So, I think, in terms of the material being prepared, we can certainly benefit from what's already out there."

"In terms of the on-going cost of education, I think you're quite right. There will be a need to continue education - particularly in the short term, as we take baby steps into the, into some sort of a by-law. And, just to follow on Councillor Jackson's eloquent comments, we are looking at two different types of by-laws and it's, at this point, it's entirely up in the air as to which direction we go in, Mr. Mayor and Councillor Collins. And, that's the process we hope to take."

Collins : "Mr. Mayor, just based on those answers - and, I thank the Councillor for the information - I would suggest that when it is forwarded to the Budget process, that the '$30,000' be considered a one-time Capital - I don't foresee consultant being required beyond 2005 for the purposes for carrying this forward. And, that possibly the $70,000 be part of the Levy discussions that we'll have."

"And so, if I could make that for us, that that be the direction to staff when this is passed, I'd very much appreciate that."

Mayor DiIanni : "To me that seemed implicit. But, if you want to make that a little more clear in (b), we can simply add one-time, we can add a one-time cost of $30,000. Are you okay with that?" (hear Councillor Collins say 'yes' from another members open microphone) "All right. Do I need a formal amendment on that, Mr. Clerk? Moved by Collins; Seconded by Jackson. All in favour of that amendment? That's carried. Councillor Braden, now, on the Motion."

Braden : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Just, with regard to 7 and perhaps I can ask this to a member of the Committee, I really am interested under definition, if the emphasis is on non-scientific comprehensive reasoning. Or, is the emphasis on serious and irreversible damage? Or, is it on both. And, I ask it, not to sound academic. But, I ask if the concept of unscientific proof is in fact the real issue, that's .." (couldn't make out the last 2 words Councillor Braden said)

"And, I" (hear a glass clink) "can give an example. But, I'd really rather, if you understand the question, I'd like to hear the answer."

McHattie : "Thanks, Mr. Mayor. Through you to Councillor Braden. It's really important to read the definition in its entirety. And, it does make sense, holistic sense, reading it in that way. I think that the comment I'd like to make is, there are a number of environmental issues - issues in other sectors, as well, social issues, for example; or economic issues for that matter - where the data hasn't quite crystallized to the extent that there's 100% agreement throughout the scientific community - and indeed, throughout society as a whole - that there's a need to act on a particular issue."

"And, I contrast this with the smoking issue, where I think there was very clearly an understanding that there was harm being caused, and that there was no real need to discuss whether this action would occur or not. Action simply had to occur. And in fact, it did occur through this Council's direction."

"In the case of the pesticide issue, there is a growing body of scientific knowledge that identifies the problems that occur due to pesticide use, in terms of health impacts on humans as well as non-humans. We know that the Ontario College of Physicians and Surgeons ( http://www.cpso.on.ca/) came out with their report about 6 months or so, ago, outlining a lot of that data."

"However, at this point in time, it's not quite as far along in terms of the scientific certainty. In fact, a lot of this is very difficult to prove from a cause/effect perspective. It's not unlike the toxic chemicals we see in the Great Lakes where it's difficult to ban a particular chemical because the cause of deformities in birds, for example, it's very difficult to prove that, that particular chemical caused that problem."

"So, in those cases where it's a little bit difficult to prove that, there's still scientific uncertainty and debate, and yet there's a feeling that there's enough of a problem and enough data out there to cause concerns. And, particularly in this case where the issue is cosmetic use of pesticides, as compared to the farm use of pesticides that Councillor Mitchell spoke of a moment ago to grow food."

"We feel in this case that we have enough data, there's enough concern identified by a number of scientific agencies to take action. And, that's where the 'precautionary' word is very, very important. We don't want to wait until the cause/effect relationship is fully understood because it may have actually done an awful lot of damage to children and to people who are exposed to pesticides in the meantime."

"So the essence, really and the emphasis here is the preventative nature of this initiative. And, that even though there is some question, we don't have the full cause/effect information, to actually postpone a decision at this point, we feel - and the precautionary principle suggests - it would be irresponsible and that we have enough information to act. And we want to act in a preventative way, so members of the community, here in Hamilton, are protected. And particularly, again, the focus is on the cosmetic use of pesticides."

Braden : "Just so you know, where I'm coming from. Just today, on the Hamilton radio I think, they were having - the Firestone Clinic (http://www.stjosham.on.ca/firestone/redevelopment.htm) was talking about asthma. Anybody that has asthma knows that it's serious. Anybody that doesn't have it, might think that you just use a puffer and it's gone. So, there's an issue about what's serious and what isn't."

"So, I was trying to get at the issue about, if it is not deemed serious to us or to the individual, whether we might use that principle of non-scientific - and I'll call it clarity - to deal with issues that we have reason to worry about, but we simply are not absolutely sure."

"And, I'm not suggesting I'm going to use the word asthma, that asthma has anything to do with chemicals. Because, in fact, whoever the chief is down at the Firestone Clinic said - he simply doesn't know. After all the research, they simply don't know. That might mean, he might mean, know completely."

"But, anyway, I just wanted to know, because I think that the principle is a very responsible one."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. Councillor Merulla." (hear someone say something off microphone) "Councillor Whitehead."

Whitehead : "Ya, I just, I guess the question is to whoever the expert is. And, it sounds like Councillor McHattie has a lot of expertise, is that we heard today, I think, a report that Hamilton, I think, leads the way in asthma. And that, you know, hay-fever and those kinds of things are predominant in the community."

"I guess the next question is what is the alternative relative to the cause/effect in respect to those kinds of ailments? If you eliminate, because you're talking about for cosmetic but, I mean, the other use of these type of materials is to be preventative in regards to the cause and effect on people who have acute hay-fever, acute asthma and so forth."

"So, I'm just seeing if you can respond to that. Thank you, Mr. Mayor."

McHattie : "I'm not sure, Mr. Mayor, if I fully understood the question. But, certainly, the use of pesticides in this context - the cosmetic use of pesticides, there are a number of health related illnesses that seem to show up in the literature as being caused by pesticide use where there's an application and then there's a measured response by local home-owners or children immediately following that response. I'd have to go into the literature to identify some of those, in particular."

"I think if the question, and maybe, also falling on Councillor Braden's final comment, if the question is whether this precautionary principle should perhaps be used for other purposes, as well. In the case of asthma being caused by air pollution and that sort of thing. And, for us to act - and we already are acting, Mr. Mayor, with Clean Air Hamilton (http://www.cleanair.hamilton.ca/) on a lot of air pollution issues - but certainly us supporting Clean Air Hamilton and what we discussed earlier this week in Planning and Economic Development Committee certainly we can invoke the precautionary principle as a reason for us to act in the way we are." (hear a glass clink) "So, I think it can be applied to a variety of cases. And certainly, asthma is one of them."

Mayor DiIanni : "I had myself down there, then I'll recognize Councillor McCarthy. Has the Committee already decided to ban cosmetic use of pesticides, because it sounds to me like you have decided that. Can you clarify that for me?"

McHattie : "By no means, Mr. Mayor. What we've done is identified two by-law options to go to the public with in terms of consultation. The one is patterned on what the Town of Caledon (http://www.town.caledon.on.ca/cnews.asp?id=117) has - there may be other municipalities, but that's the one that comes to mind, here in Ontario - and it's a by-law that restricts the use of pesticides and manages the use of pesticides. So, pesticides are still being used in that context."

"The second by-law option is to ban the use of pesticides. And that's the Toronto model (http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/council/environtf_pestcouncil.htm; see too, http://www.toronto.ca/health/pesticides/
pdf/implementation_ofthe_pesticide_bylaw.pdf; and also http://www.city.toronto.on.ca/health/hphe/pesticides_playingitsafe.htm). And, they're into that process right now - the very early stages of it. They've got a phase in period - 3 years, actually, in their case. And, they're doing strictly education, at this point in time. They haven't actually got into any kind of enforcement on the by-law. So, we're, I think it's fair to say, Councillor Jackson and Councillor Mitchell, Councillor Bruckler, that we're very much in the early stages - entirely open through the public consultation process as to which direction we go in."

"I think this is going to be an evolutionary process and that the committee decided very early on, that no matter what we do, we want to get into education. Because, that's a key component of this. People understand what's going on; understand the implications; and understand the alternatives, quite frankly, as well, with using fewer pesticides. And also alternative styles of lawns and that sort of thing."

"The other important point we should probably make to cover the issue in its entirety, is that our own Parks Department, for example, does use pesticides in some contexts - primarily for playing fields. And, they have decreased the use of pesticides to a great extent than it was 2 years ago, 3 years ago, for example. And, that's through Council direction as well, several years ago."

"So, we're also going to have to look at our own use of pesticides. We've had discussions with Bryan Shynal, Scott Stewart, in terms of that and will continue to do that and look at the implications of whatever we decide for a by-law on what we're doing here, actually, at the City as well."

"So, with all those things, we're very much with our ears open for listening for input from Hamiltonians."

Mayor DiIanni : "Okay. Thank you. Councillor McCarthy."

McCarthy : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I remember a presentation that took place in this Council, I think it was about 3 years ago, when we were dealing, first of all, with this issue. And, we were looking at reducing the amount of chemicals within our own departments, on municipally-owned properties. And, the chemical companies came in and they made presentations that we were over-reacting at the time. And, given a certain application on a piece of property, how many feet a controlled substance applied at such-and-such a time, with the precaution, minimized the risk to anyone walking on the lawn within how many hours afterwards."

"But what, you know, struck me as odd when I'm watching these presentations is, we were applying this to our parks. I back onto a park, and I've watched the kids - not just walk on this so-called controlled substance within how many hours. They dive on the grass. They play all over it. They pick up the balls. They touch it and they're ingesting this substance that after so-many hours is dangerous within the system of an adult. We're dealing with children that have underdeveloped intestinal tracks, underdeveloped systems and they're not dealing with this substance in a controlled manner at all. They're playing on these fields."

"This is, that's the issue. That's the problem. I mean, when you compile these variables, you have ingested doses that are not safe, that are not controlled. And, the diagnostic evaluation that takes place later on in hospital is hard to track. And, I've got to tell you that I've learned quite a bit. I have a girlfriend who had a child that ended up in this scenario. And, you learn very quickly about the dangers of pesticides. The hospitals are very equipped to tell you that they feel that this is problematic. What happens is you've got the opposition and the chemical companies coming forward - like anything. We've had the same issue over the tobacco and anti-smoking."

"But, my money's going on let's be safe than sorry. So, I'm anxious to see this go forward. I'm supporting this recommendation and I hope we move forward very aggressively on it. Thank you."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. Councillor Ferguson."

Ferguson : "Through you, Mr. Mayor, to Scott Stewart. What is our protocol on herbicide on parks? Is it broadcast all parks?

Scott Stewart - General Manager, Public Works : "Through you, Mr. Mayor. I haven't got that in front of me. But, it's really, it's the, in general terms, the application is on sports fields and from time to time on any of our arena locations where weeds are an issue for bowlers. But, again, I could certainly get our park staff to circulate that tomorrow to Council. And let you" (hear a glass clink) "know the applications - "

Ferguson : "That, as I recall it's on demand as opposed to as scheduled time-table?"

Scott Stewart - General Manager, Public Works : "Through you, Mr. Mayor, that's my understanding, as well, Councillor Ferguson." (hear someone say something off microphone)

McHattie : "Ya, just, I don't know all of the details. We do have a report from Bryan Shynal to the Committee which I can share with Councillor Ferguson. But, just a, I think the department is very much committed to reducing pesticides. In fact, they've already done so, to a great extent. And, I think the next step, should they want to continue, will, if they reduce the use of chemicals in some of these parks, they're going to have to still keep the sports fields in good shape. So, that's going to require some additional manual work - aeration and keeping track of things - which may have some staffing implications if we get to that phase where we want to go the next step on pesticide use."

"So, I think we'll have to clearly, as we do in every budget process we're very concerned about FTEs (full time employees) adding additional staff. Nonetheless, if we evolve into that way of thinking over time - and I emphasize this is definitely a phase over time, period - we may have to consider that evolution."

"But certainly, Bryan Shynal, involved with parks in this area, is prepared to do that. But, we'll need some discussion at Committee in Council as we evolved into that."

Ferguson : "Just supplementary to that, I'm not a pro-chemical person by any means. But, just be careful what you ask for, because herbicide also includes insecticide. Insecticide is what we use to treat the West Nile. So, we've got to be careful what we -" (hear someone say something off microphone)

Mayor DiIanni : "Okay. Yes, the process is wide open and we have not made up our minds, even though it sounds like there's a definite trend here. Was there - Councillor Whitehead, last - "

Whitehead : "Well, it's just a comment, it was just some clarity, because I think Councillor Ferguson might have just touched on it. I didn't want to mix - we're talking pesticides, here and I was actually referring to herbicides. So, and clarity, herbicides is what you normally use for weed control. And pesticides, as I understand it," (hear a glass clink) "is what you use for insectide, insects. So, maybe you can provide some clarity on that."

Mayor DiIanni : "Just clarification, and then we'll move on, I think."

McHattie : "I'm enjoying being on television a lot tonight, Mr. Mayor, But," (hear laughter from Council and gallery) "just a, it's a, pesticide is a generic term which includes insecticides and herbicides and larvacides and other things. So, when you hear pesticides, that's an all-encompassing term. So, you would refer specifically to herbicides if that was the case."

"Just a quick comment, we're talking about the cosmetic use of pesticides, here. So, certainly, the West Nile applications would not be covered under this. And, they need to go ahead, as we've heard from our Public Health staff."

Mayor DiIanni : "Good. I think we've had a good debate and it sounds like it's an interesting committee doing some good work. So, we'll see where it goes. And, I look forward to the public consultation sessions, as well."

"Item #7, then, all in favour?" (hear councillors say carried) "8, as amended, all in favour?" (hear councillors say carried) "That's carried. Number - Councillor McHattie, may I have a Motion on the Report."

McHattie : "Thanks, Mr. Mayor. Moved by myself; Seconded by Councillor Merulla, that the first report of the Social and Public Health Services Committee be adopted and the Information Section received." (tape stopped. Sorry)

(Mayor DiIanni asked Councillor to vote on the report and it was carried. He then introduced the Licensing Committee Report, introducing the items, which were carried by Councillors and subsequently asked Councillor Merulla for a Motion on that report. Councillor Merulla Moved the report and noted that this Motion was seconded by Councillor McHattie. This is where we pick up the audio.)

6.6 Licensing Committee, Report 05-001, January 20, 2005 (to be distributed)
(Merulla / McHattie - CARRIED)
(http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
council/2005/Jan26/Licensing%20Committee%20Report%20005-001.pdf)

Merulla : ".that the Licensing Committee be, that the City of Hamilton Licensing Committee Report be adopted and the Information Section received."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. All in favour?" (hear councillors say carried) "Thank you."

See Part #3
Starting with Item #7 - "Motions"