March 9/05 Report – Part 2 of 4

(Continued from Part #1 that ended with Item 6.1 "Committee Reports - Public Works, Infrastructure and Environment Committee, Report 05-004, February 28, 2005)

6.2 Planning and Economic Development Committee, Report 05-006, March 1, 2005
(Whitehead / Pearson - CARRIED as Amended)
(http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
Planning-Economic-Development/2005/Mar01/REPORT%2005-006.pdf)

Mayor DiIanni : "The next report is Planning and Economic Development presenting its 6 th report and recommending item #1" (hear councillors say carried) "#2 . #5" (hear some councillors say carried, as well as a glass clink) "5, Councillor Whitehead."

COMMENT ON - " 5. Application for Approval of a Draft Plan of Subdivision, " Duncairn Forest " and Change in Zoning for Lands Known Municipally as 81 Duncairn Crescent (Hamilton) (PD05053) (Ward 8) (Item 6.2) "

Whitehead : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. This is an infill project that's taking place in Ward 8. And it's a good project. We had 4 representatives from the community who attended the public session. And, the issues they raised was: increased taxes, increased traffic, enclosure of pathway, encroachment of open space, tree preservation."

"And, what came out of that discussion is in fact, this is a land that was surplus that was owned by the School Board and purchased by the developer for infill. It's a good infill development. There's no sidewalks required because of our current policy in it's a court-type setting and the number of houses."

"And, there is a current walkway that went into an open field that was in anticipation of a school being built there. And since the school's not being built there, there's no requirement to currently exist. And, we certainly don't want the general public walking into a street that has no sidewalks. We certainly don't want to encourage it and the staff's recommendation that we do close it is only 417 feet more for some of the residents who are impacted. I want to put emphasis on 'some.'"

"There is a site plan process. There is a tree preservation as part of that process. So that certainly would address the concerns in respect to the encroachment of open space and tree preservation. And, this is a good use. There's services there and we're taking advantage of those services. And, these are the type of developments that we want."

"So, I want to thank the 4 individuals from Ward 8 who came down and participated in the public process. And, their points were heard. And, I believe they are being addressed."

"And, the other issue was traffic. And, I want to make it clear, that the streets were designed to take the traffic. In fact, the traffic volumes that would've been created though having a school built there far outweighs, or would be far greater than this current development."

"So, I'm enthusiastic about this particular infill. And, I completely support it. Thank you."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you very much. On 5, Councillor Pearson."

Pearson : "No, Mr. Mayor. My apologies, but if I could go back to 4, just because we have a number of residents in the - " (hear some talking in the back ground, off microphone as Mayor speaks)

Mayor DiIanni : "Since I've got 5 - " (hear more talking in the background) "hang on." (hear some giggles from council) "Since - "

Pearson : " - just wanted to comment - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - I've got 5 to deal with - "

Pearson : " - Okay - " (hear a glass clink)

Mayor DiIanni : " - let's take a vote on 5. All in favour of 5?" (hear councillors say carried) "It's carried. Now, what is the wish of the Committee. Go ahead, Councillor Pearson."

COMMENT ON - " 4. Application for a Change in Zoning for the Properties Located at 340 Leaside Avenue and 467 Barton Street ( Stoney Creek ) (PD05052) (Ward 10) (Item 6.1)

That approval be given to Zoning Application ZAC-04-94, Mohawk College, owner , for a change in zoning from the Small Scale Industrial "MS" Zone to the Special Purpose Industrial "MSP-6" Zone (Block "1"); and for a further modification to the Special Purpose Industrial "MSP-6" Zone (Block "2") to permit a 3 story addition and parking lot expansion to Mohawk College, on lands located at 340 Leaside Avenue and 467 Barton Street, shown as Blocks "1" and "2", on Appendix "A" to Report PD05052, on the following basis:

(a) That Block "1" be rezoned from the Small Scale Industrial "MS" Zone to the Special Purpose Industrial "MSP-6" Zone.

(b) That the attached Draft By-law, included as Appendix "B" to Report PD05052, which has been prepared in a form satisfactory to Corporate Counsel, be enacted by City Council.

(c) That the amending By-law be added to Schedule "A", Map No. 1, of Zoning By-law No. 3692-92.

(d) That the proposed change in zoning is in conformity with the Hamilton-Wentworth Official Plan and the City of Stoney Creek Official Plan ."

Pearson : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I just wanted to comment on Item 4. This is with regards to the application by Mohawk College , because we have a number of students in the audience, so they can know what's happening in the area. This is an expansion request that came forward at committee and was approved unanimously. We had no residents complaining in the neighbourhood. So, I'm really pleased that this was supported and we look forward to continuous growth at Mohawk College in Ward 10. Thank you."

Mayor DiIanni ; "Thank you. And, we've already voted on 4." (hear a glass clink) "Councillor Whitehead on 4?"

Whitehead : "Well actually, there's one piece I forgot to address, that was the tax issue [for Item 5]. In fact, what's happening is, is on an infill, there's an impact on taxed tot he current residents that are living in those areas. So, we've asked staff to take a look at that, assess it, and come back with a report. So, I just wanted to address that particular issue as well, thank you."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. #6" (hear councillors say a staggered 'carried') "#6?" (hear councillors give a more firm 'carried') "Thank you. #7" (hear councillors say carried) "#8 .#12" (hear some councillors say carried, as well as a glass clink) "#12, Councillor McHattie."

COMMENT ON - " 12. Recommendation to Designate 71 Main Street West (Hamilton City Hall Civic Complex), Hamilton, Under Part IV of the Ontario Heritage Act (PD05036) (Ward 2) (Item 8.4)

That the following recommendations contained in Report PD05036, endorsed by the City's Municipal Heritage Committee on December 16, 2004, be tabled by the Planning and Economic Development Committee, until such time as Council has concurrently received, and considered, the report from the Public Works Department (Fleet and Facilities Division) regarding the necessary renovations/repairs and cost implications for the Main Street City Hall building:

(a) That 71 Main Street West, Hamilton City Hall, be designated as a property of cultural heritage value pursuant to the provisions of Part IV of the Ontario Heritage Act .

(b) That the Reasons for Designation contained in Appendix "A" to Report PD05036 be approved.

(c) That Council direct Corporate Counsel to take appropriate action to designate 71 Main Street West (Hamilton City Hall) under Part IV of the Ontario Heritage Act,

(8) Planning & Economic Development Report 05-006 Committee Council - March 9, 2005 1990, in accordance with the Notice of Intention to Designate attached as Appendix "B" to Report PD05036." (Note : Item 12 was changed to Information Section Item (m) during the Changes to the Agenda portion of March 9, City Council meeting)

McHattie : "Mr. Mayor, this item addresses - "

Mayor DiIanni : "Sorry, there's some - "

McHattie : "oop - "

Mayor DiIanni : "There was, let's just, I'll give you a chance to speak but there was a bit of an error, I think, in the listing of these, which is different from how the Committee intended them. Go ahead Coun - er, Mr. Clerk."

Kevin Christenson - City Clerk : "Yes, thank you, Mr. Mayor. In the Changes to the Agenda, I noted that certain items in the Planning and Economic Development Committee Report - being items 12 through 16 - would be deleted from the recommendation section and moved to the background, or 'Information Section' of the Report."

"The intent of these items was that, in most cases, they were referred to staff for further information back to the Committee. On Item 12, it was that it would be tabled until further information came forward to the Committee so that it could come to Council simultaneously with the report from the Public Works and Environment Committee. [Planning and Ec Dev?] So, at the end of Item 11, you have completed the recommendations presented. The other items are there for information."

Mayor DiIanni : "Right. So, 12 through 16 are there for information. And, you'll still be allowed to comment of course. But, I guess the Committee decided to sent it away to staff so that more information could come back to the Committee before final disposition of the Item. Do you want to hold?"

McHattie : "I just, I was at the meeting and I wasn't aware of that. I don't know when that was decided. I suppose it doesn't really matter. I'd like to speak to it - whatever opportunity. We actually voted on it at the Committee, on the Recommendation and I voted against it. So I - "

Mayor DiIanni : "Okay. You're free to speak. And, I wasn't at the Committee and this is that information that - "

McHattie : " - but that we don't vote tonight. Is that what - "

Mayor DiIanni : "There's no vote tonight, - "

McHattie : " - Tabled - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - because it was Tabled, essentially, exactly. You can speak to it now. Or, you can hold your fire until it comes back to us."

McHattie : (chooses to speak) "Just so people know what's at stake here, this is the designation of City Hall, under the Ontario Heritage Act
(http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90o18_e.htm). And the feeling by staff and supported by Planning Committee I guess is that we need to have the, all the costs for the renovations to City Hall before we proceed with the Heritage designation."

"The only concern that I have is that the building is tremendously important as it is. It took some of us some time to understand that this is indeed a heritage building. It's not an 1890s building. But, it's a heritage building in the way that it was constructed and a uniqueness across the country in the marble cladding on the outside of the building; the mosaics outside and inside the building."

"And, I just wanted to express my concern that we're not moving ahead with the Heritage Designation, now. The concern I have, Mr. Mayor, is we come back and for some reason we decide that it's too expensive to fix City Hall or to renovate it in a heritage fashion, then we're losing important aspects of the Heritage Designation. So, I think it's unfortunate that we're not moving ahead with the Heritage Designation, as recommended by the Municipal Heritage Committee (http://www.hamilton.ca/Planning-and-Development/development/
Community-Planning-and-Design/heritage-urban/
municipal-heritage-committee.asp) - LACAC [Local Architectural Conservation Advisory Committee], and by our Heritage Staff, Heritage Planning Staff."

"The facts are that it is, it does meeting the Heritage Act Requirements. There are a number of reasons for designation that are very clear and that we should be moving ahead, in my view. So, I'll put that on record, I guess, at this point. And, I'm hoping that when it does come back to us, and we see the dollars, we don't start back-tracking on some of the important heritage features of it."

"Also concerned about the message it sends to people out there in the community who are also looking at designating their homes or their districts - and in the case of a Heritage District, where they may think it's too expensive to do that, following our lead on that."

"So, I'm hoping that it doesn't cause a problem but, certainly am concerned with the direction we're going in. Thanks, Mr. Mayor."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. Councillor Ferguson on the issue."

Ferguson : "Mr. Mayor, the Accommodations Committee met late this afternoon and we saw a draft report of a Report that's coming to Standing Committee. I was surprised how complimentary that report is towards the architectural preservation component. ." (tape stopped, sorry. But suggests a special COW meeting for this)

Mayor DiIanni : ". When staff brings it forward, that's the forum we'll use. Councillor Pearson."

Pearson : "Mr. Mayor, I just want to concur on the lines with Councillor McHattie. I also sit on the Heritage Committee. And, was also involved - greatly involved in the Heritage Committee in Stoney Creek for a number of years. I'm just going to touch on - and as Councillor McHattie has said, with the Heritage Committee, there's a number of, there's actually 4 pages of reasons that this building should be designated. And I just wanted - I'm not going to touch on them all because it is a very lengthy list."

"If for no reason, other than the fact that recognizing it's not 100 years old, but some day it will be. And, we should try and preserve what we can as far as the character of this building - it is unique - not just to Hamilton and Ontario, but I would even say to Canada and maybe even the world. Because it is a very, very unique structure and design. So, it is important that we try and preserve what we can and I'm pleased to hear some of the information coming forward, this evening. Thank you, Mr. Mayor."

Mayor DiIanni : "And, Councillor Braden."

Braden : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'd actually like to make a comment on 15. So, if you want to finish with this, first."

Mayor DiIanni : "The only thing I'd like to say is that I'm glad it's going back and we're getting some more information on 12. And, I'm pleased that the Heritage Committee wants to preserve heritage. I think that's very important."

"And, off line, I'll ask about what's happening with the Tivoli, because there we seem to be preserving rubble and that's not good for the City, quite frankly. But, that's a different discussion."

"On item 12 then - oh no, we don't need anything on 12 or 13 or 14 or 15," (hear a glass clink) "except for a comment on 15. Go ahead."

COMMENT ON - " 15. Factory Outlet stores (Motion)

That a Strategy for attracting Factory Outlet Stores to the non-Downtown area of the old City of Hamilton, including Brownfield areas, infill areas, and areas adjacent to the major highways, be prepared by Economic Development staff and that a report be brought back to Committee." ( Note : Item 15 was changed to Information Section Item (u) during the Changes to the Agenda portion of March 9, City Council meeting)

Braden : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. And I wasn't in fact at this meeting. But this is about the factory outlet stores in the old City of Hamilton, but I think excluding the downtown. And, it talks about asking staff for a strategy for attracting these stores."

"I don't know if it meant to be, but I think it's presumptuous that necessarily these kinds of stores would be a good thing. And I would just like to - if it's a friendly amendment, fine. But, I think that the report should include something about what the impacts of this would be, necessarily. Rather than just assuming it's a good thing."

Mayor DiIanni : "Well, but it think this has been tabled so staff can come back with at report that'll look at positives, as well as - "

Braden : "Well, Mr. Mayor, if that's what they're going to do. But, what I'm trying to do is, I'm trying to get in there, not trying to re-debate it. I'm trying to get the report a little bit wider in scope. So, it would look at impacts, as opposed to merit."

"I mean, the emphasis I think when you read it is the word 'attracting'. And, I don't want it to be just in isolation - just the idea of attracting. Because I think it needs a debate."

Mayor DiIanni : "Except, it's recommended for tabling now. Would the Committee Chair like to shed some light on that?"

Whitehead : "Well, Mr. Mayor, there was an outstanding, on the outstanding list, there was issue I think was Moved by Councillor Horwath and Seconded by Councillor Merulla, originally in respect to attracting Big Box type stores or Factory Outlets in the downtown area. I think Councillor Merulla had moved forward and - because we were trying to take it off the outstanding list, and made a recommendation that we take a look at the merits of attracting Factory Outlet stores along our highway corridors. And" (hear a glass clink) "that was then supported, as far as direction. So, I would suggest that Councillor Merulla would be the best one to ask."

Mayor DiIanni : "It was his Motion, originally, sometime ago - "

Whitehead : "- it's a direction, ya."

Mayor DiIanni : "I guess the question is, is the strategy on absolutely attracting; or, is it looking at the merits, as the Chair has suggested?"

Merulla : "It's basically looking at the merits and attracting. The original Motion as I presented to Councillor Horwath at that time, which she brought forward, I guess in the process some how, the downtown component was isolated but excluded the actual original intent of the Motion, which was to look at the Niagara-Toronto corridor and attracting that traffic to either the Centre Mall, as a Big Box store potential; or, the downtown initiative, as well."

"So, as a direct result of that, we pursued it. The downtown component doesn't meet the secondary plan. But, from an east end perspective - particularly the Centre Mall - it's an incredible opportunity. And one that I believe should exist to expand upon the present plans."

Mayor DiIanni : "So Councillor, what I'm hearing is the merits and strategy. So, you're happy with that. Okay." (hear concurrence by Councillor Braden off microphone) (hear a glass clink) "Councillor Mitchell first-time. And then, back to Whitehead."

COMMENT ON - " 16. Impact of Current Value Assessment (Motion)

That the issue of Current Value Assessment and its impact on the tax situation in areas wherever infill development takes place, be reviewed and that staff report back with options on how this matter may be addressed." (Note : Item 16 was changed to Information Section Item (v) during the Changes to the Agenda portion of March 9, City Council meeting)

Mitchell : "I just had a comment on Item 16 - the last one, Mr. Mayor, because I did Move that one. Is that fine? Okay. The last one on Impact of Current Value Assessment, Mr. Mayor. As everybody knows, here, next year's another assessment year. And that tax shift could be absolutely incredible. And, we've got a lot of seniors in this city, Mr. Mayor, in adult life-style communities that they're on fixed incomes and their taxes are going up. Some of them, their taxes are higher now, than what their mortgage payments were on their homes initially. And they have paid for their arenas and fire halls and parks and so on, once already. So, this Current Value Assessment tax shift is not fair in any way."

"So, this report is to try to cover off the dilemma we're going to be in for the '06 year. And, to see if there's any tools available to us to try to correct that. That's" (hear a glass clink) "what this Motion was all about."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. Yes, go ahead."

Whitehead : "Mr. Mayor the, actually, this is the one I was talking about to address the infill, [Item #5, Ward 8] and the impacts it has on the current neighbourhoods when we do infill because we have some concerns raised by residents and I actually addressed that earlier. So, I'm not sure if Councillor Mitchell's addressing the intent of this particular direction that's been given."

"But, I just wanted to provide clarification for it."

Mayor DiIanni : "Okay. Well, staff will come back with some report. That's why these are tabled [i.e. changed to Information Section, rather than Action items] right now. Councillor McHattie, now."

McHattie : "So, just a point of clarification, Mr. Mayor. A moment ago, you said that the Tivoli is about preserving rubble? I just wanted to clarify what you meant by that. Because of course, part of it is designated and the entrance way to the building and the auditorium is fully intact. And we've had heritage staff in there recently to move ahead with that. And it is designated, now. So, I just wanted to clarify, because I know you didn't mean that."

Mayor DiIanni : "Well, ya, let's talk off-line. My concern is that you drive down, you see rubble, you don't see what - "

McHattie : " - in the front - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - can be and should be preserved, perhaps. You see rubble. We need to deal with that."

"Councillor Whitehead, may I have a Motion" (hear a glass clink) "on the Report, as amended. Councillor Kelly."

COMMENT ON - " (g) Our Downtowns and BIAs - 2004 Annual Report (PD05055) (City Wide) (Item 7.1)

Ron Marini gave an overview of the report using a powerpoint presentation.

He highlighted the successes in Downtown Hamilton over the previous year, including the Core Lofts, Chateau Royale, the former Bank of Montreal at Main and James, the new office building at Main and Hughson and the almost completed Staybridge Holiday Inn on Market Street.

Mr. Marini noted the success of the Downtown Ambassador Programme, the successes achieved by the Clean and Safe Committee and the proposed developments at 12 Mary Street (old Century Theatre), 47 Caroline, 150 King and the former Federal Building on Main Street.

Mr. Marini also paid tribute to Mary Carlin, the School Crossing Guard who had saved several children from injury during a traffic incident at her crossing. He thanked Ms. Carlin, who had placed the lives of the children ahead of her own safety, and who had been injured as a result.

Mr. Marini outlined a number of successes in the other Downtown areas of the City, including Stoney Creek and Dundas.

Mr. Marini provided an overview of the CPIG project for façade improvements, and Gord Moodie explained the additional future possibilities of the proposed Urban Development Bank.

Members of Committee congratulated Mr. Marini and his staff, and received the report.

Committee discussed various aspects of the report."

Kelly : "Mr. Mayor, if I could, just draw Council's attention in the Information Section from this report, Item (g), which was a report that our staff gave downtown and BIAs." (Business Improvement Area) "Ron Marini" (Director of Downtown Renewal) "and Gord Moodie" (Loans and Grant Co-ordinator, Downtown Renewal) "were involved in that. I think it's important, Mr. Chairman, from time to time that we talk about and reiterate this sort of work that's being done downtown, which is the reason why Chairman Whitehead invited staff to make this presentation at that time."

"We've got a long way to go with downtown re-development. It certainly is the flash point for an awful lot of the things that, when people say, well, here's what's wrong with Hamilton, invariably look at - well, it's the downtown this, it's the downtown that. And, even as early, as late as today, as a matter of fact, in the Spectator there was an article from an out of town university professor telling us all of the things we've done wrong in Hamilton and you know, and here's the things, and - "

"One of the things that really irritated me, as a matter of fact, was one phrase that jumped out at me saying that our 1,000 new units down there were a drop in the bucket. And, I take great exception to that, frankly. And, for an out-of-towner to make a comment like that indicates his lack of knowledge of where we are and where we've been and what we've done in the meantime to try to address these problems."

"Advice is - you know, that and 65 cents'll get you a cup a coffee these days. I'd like to find a university professor that tells me a funding source to try to do something more than we're doing. But, what Mr. Marini did at the Council, er at the Committee meeting that day, and others from staff, was brought the Committee up to date. And, I think we need to bring the public up to date on the sorts of works that are being done downtown."

"We talked a little bit about - not just of course, the downtown re-development and the 1,000 new units, there at market rate. But of course, the hotel development that's going on down there; the Ambassador Program, that we've is quite successful; the downtown clean-up; the cooperation that we're having with the BIAs."

"Clearly, Mr. Mayor, we've made mistakes. Council's made mistakes over the last 30 to 35 years - as have most other cities in North America. Urban renewal and tearing down old buildings, and putting up inner-city malls are something an awful lot of cities were victimized by, and so was Hamilton. And, we're trying to come back from that."

"It took 25 years to get us into this situation, we're not going to fix it in" (hear a glass clink) "25 days. But, I'm confident, Mr. Mayor, as staff are, and I think most of the people around this table are, is that we're moving in the right direction. We are starting to make some positive improvements. And, I think we're on the right track. And, I think we need to get that message across to the public."

"There are still some problem areas. And, we all know what they are. We already talked about the Tivoli. We've talked about the Lister Block. But I know, Mr. Mayor, in some of the discussions we've had with some of the principals involved in that, that could be addressed in the very near future. But, we're moving in the right direction. Staff are coming up with some very innovative ways to do this."

"We've talked about redevelopment downtown and expanding our ERASE program
(http://www.hamilton.ca/business/redevelop/brownfields/
pdf/brownfields-erase.pdf) and lo and behold, the Federal Budget announcement, as couple of weeks ago already talked about a funding source for that."

"So, the stars are aligning, Mr. Mayor, for us to continue with some of these programs and enhance some of them. So, we're not where we need to be right now, but we're moving in the right direction. I feel very positive about the future. And that's why I wanted to draw Council and the public's attention to the work that's being done by staff to try to move downtown forward, again and get it back to where it belongs. Thank you, Mr. Mayor."

Mayor DiIanni : "Okay. Councillor Whitehead, then, may I have a Motion on the Report as amended."

Whitehead : "Moved by myself; Seconded by Maria Pearson that the 6 th Report of the Planning and Economic Development Committee be adopted as amended and the Information Section received."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. All in favour?" (hear councillors say carried) "That's carried."

6.3 Corporate Administration Committee, Report 05-005, March 2, 2005
(Note: Report was voted on after in camera session)
(http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
Corporate-Administration/2005/Mar02/Corp.%20Admin.%20Report%2005-005.pdf)
(after in camera session - Braden / Bratina - CARRIED as Amended)

Mayor DiIanni : "Corporate Admin presents its 5 th Report and recommends Item #1" (hear councillors say carried) "#2 . #5" (hear some councillors say carried, and hear a glass clink) "#5?" (hear off-microphone someone say 6) "6?" (then hear Councillor Braden say 'no, 5') "See, #5. Go ahead."

COMMENT ON - " Council - March 9, 2005

5. Employee Parking Policy (HUR03007/PD03204/FCS03135) (City Wide)
(Item 8.1)

(a) That those employees who, as a direct result of amalgamation, moved into positions in the downtown core and lost the benefit of employer-provided parking, be added to the list of employees who are currently provided employer-paid parking;

(b) That the Employee Parking Policy be amended to include the following within the Provisions section of the Policy: "Any employee in the downtown core who, effective with the approval date of this policy, has employer-paid parking, is exempted from the subject Employee Parking Policy until such time as they voluntarily leave their current position.";

(c) That, the Employee Parking Policy attached as "Appendix "B" hereto, be approved, as amended;

(d) That all departmental savings realized through the reduction of staff parking permits in the downtown core be applied to public transit/car pooling initiatives;

(e) That the following policies and procedures be repealed:

1. Former City of Hamilton/Region of Hamilton-Wentworth Policy No.3.26, "Employee Paid Parking Procedure" and Policy No. 3.8 "Employee Paid Parking Policy";
2. Former City of Hamilton/Region of Hamilton-Wentworth "Courthouse Parking Policy";

(f) That the Public Works and Planning and Development Departments be directed to investigate and report back on the costs and procedures for proposals to encourage employees in alternate forms of commuting to work, such as car pooling, walking and cycling.

(Councillors M. Ferguson and M. Pearson indicated that they wished to be recorded as OPPOSED to this item.)"

Braden : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor -"

Mayor DiIanni : (starts to say something before turning his microphone on) " . to pass that one, but go ahead." (hear giggles from Council)

Braden : "Well, you know, I was looking around waiting for somebody else to tick their glass, first. But I thought, it needs to be addressed. And at least, if I can start it off. And hopefully, we will have the debate because it needs to be."

"First I want to say, that with the help of certain politicians on the Committee, there was a big first step made, which was equalizing the cost of parking for people that might work side by side and doing the same job. So, I think that the first step is commendable and it's a long time coming. I mean, it's something like 48 months. And, if you multiply that by 30 bucks or 50 bucks after tax money, that's a fortune."

"But in fact, there was discussion at the Committee and I think I broke the tie or because I wanted to have the debate here, I think it's one that the whole Council needs to decide, not merely the Committee. It's a little touchy. So, we better have it thoroughly done and then get rid of it."

"I think that the City needs to address the cost of parking where there is a real parking issue. I don't think there's a parking issue in Glanbrook or Stoney Creek. I don't know; don't think there's a parking issue in Flamborough. I don't know about Dundas. I don't know about arenas. But, parking is a real issue here. It's part of an urban setting and a downtown."

"And, I would be willing to approve this if there was a commitment to deal with a bigger picture within a limited period of time - i.e. if there was a commitment here that we said, we're going to do this now. And, in 6 months or - we promise to deal with the whole picture and then, put it to bed. But, there was no promise. The attitude really was - and I'm part of it was - let's do a little bit of this and then let's get rid of it and get on to other things."

"So, this has been here for 4 years. It's us that has really kept it here for 4 years. We need to deal with it. And, if I use those as opening comments, I suspect somebody else might talk about it."

Mayor DiIanni : "Well, Councillor Ferguson is joining the fray. Go ahead."

Ferguson : "Reluctantly. Mr. Mayor, this is a hugely emotional issue. But, the net result of this resolution is we've appeased about 50 people. There's still 400 who don't have, never will have, and never will be able to have paid-for parking. We still penalize City employees who have to work" (hear a glass clink) "in the downtown."

"I thought at first, it was an amalgamation issue. But it's not, it's more than an amalgamation issue, it's a department issue. Some departments have all kinds of parking permits. Other departments have none. So, it's inconsistent. It's not equitable. And, it's not fair. It's not perfect. Is it as good as we're going to get? Probably. But, I spoke against it at Committee and I'm going to speak against it, now just with one caution: once this passes - and I reserve the right to be wrong - but I think the fees that are currently at $45 a month will go to $60 after this is passed."

Mayor DiIanni : "Councillor Mitchell."

Mitchell : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'm going to vote opposed to it, as well. And, it is a big issue. But, some of the staff that and through Public Works and whatnot that I've been dealing with a little closer have come to me and offered up a suggestion. And we should be listening to some of these staff. And most of them that have come to me are ones that are receiving the benefit, now. And they are concerned as well about the inequity of working side by side with people that don't get that benefit. And they also know, that we can't financially afford to spread it across to everybody because of the financial constraints."

"And, the best idea I heard come from our staff was to take that pool of money and spread it across everybody that's down here, that deserves to have parking paid for so all the staff equally get some of the parking paid for would make it equal. So, you're taking a little bit away from somebody but not all. And, you're giving back the inequity to somebody else. And, it was an idea that came from them. I don't know if it's ever been thoroughly discusses or not. But, that would be what I would support because we do need to make a decision and get on with this issue. And, I think hearing that from them is a very good idea. And, I can't support this as it is today."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. Councillor Whitehead."

Whitehead : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Well I'm in fact, supportive of the resolution here, in front of us here, today. And, I just want to say that most places I've worked, they red-circle individuals that they want to freeze that whatever enhancements they may have. This is an example of that. And, I want to - the other thing I need to make clear is that most of the workers that we're talking about, the reason why they had, got parking is because it was part of a negotiation with their Department Heads. And so, it was like sort of a condition of employment, in most cases. Although it wasn't a contract. It was, 'you want me to work here, then you know, I want free, I want parking.' And that was the condition of their employment.'"

"So I, to take it away from them when it was a condition when they were employed, is just the wrong-headed way to deal with it. And, the best way to deal with it is what's right here, in front of us. So, I just wanted to bring that to the fore. Thanks."

Mayor DiIanni : "Councillor Pearson."

Pearson : "Well, Mr. Mayor, I didn't support this at Committee because I feel that it will not take this off the table for us. It will come back to haunt us. It's not resolved. And, as Councillor Ferguson said, I don't know that staff is aware, that once this is passed, the rates all go up to $60. And, there is a difference in rates right now."

"So, I think it's going to come back and be on the table for us sooner than later. So, for that reason - and it is not fair. It does not create equitable rates throughout the municipality for staff and for that reason, I won't be supporting it. Thank you."

Mayor DiIanni : "Okay. Thank you. There are no more speakers. I'll just make a couple of comments on this, then. That the first is, that we have delayed this 4 times now, over the last 4 and some years. And staff is looking for some direction. I think our senior staff is looking for some direction in terms of implementing the policy, I think. Our employees are looking for some direction from Council, as well."

"There are lots of problems with this. And I think, everybody around this table knows them. Is it better than what we've got? Yes, it accommodates more people. Is it as good as what we should have? No. Can we afford to make it as good as what we should have? No. Is it feasible to ever reach that stage where everybody will be accommodated? Probably not. But, is it better than what we've got now? I think so. And for that reason, I'll support it."

"However, the idea's been stated by Councillor Braden that - and Councillor Pearson suggested it, as well - that this may need to be a constant work in progress. So, let's make it a little better. And, let's see if we can approve it going forward. Councillor Ferguson."

Ferguson : "Just one question through you, Mr. Mayor, to Mr. Peace. Is there a policy coming around car-pooling?" (I think Glen Peace asked Councillor Ferguson to repeat the question, as he didn't hear it clearly) "Is there a policy coming around car-pooling?"

Glen Peace - City Manager : "Through you, Mr. Chair, to the Councillor. Yes, we're investigating that. And we'll be reporting back to Council on that initiative, as well."

Ferguson : "That's one thing that bothers me a little bit, too - we're not doing anything to encourage alternate modes other than the automobile. So, with car-pooling, it's a step in the right direction."

Mayor DiIanni : "Frankly, one of the suggestions made at some point in the debate, was around providing bus tokens" (hear a glass clink) "for people, rather than cars. So, throw that into the mix if we look at this again. Councillor Ferguson."

Ferguson : "We do now. We provide a reduced bus pass."

Mayor DiIanni : "Excellent. Okay. Well, I think we've had our debate. All in favour?" (hear some councillors say carried) "Against?" (hear some councillors say against) "It carries." (I did not see / hear exactly who voted for or against. However, perhaps the comments of councillors above, may help to clarify the distinction.)

"Item #6" (hear councillors say carried) "#7 . #9" (hear councillors say carried and hear a glass clink) "#10 - #9, Councillor McCarthy."

McCarthy : "#10, Mr. Mayor."

Mayor DiIanni : "#10, go ahead."

COMMENT ON and MOTION RECOMMENDED - " 10. Red Hill Valley Project Litigation Costs (LS05003) (City Wide) (Item 12.1)

1. That Report LS05003 respecting Red Hill Valley Project Litigation Costs, be received for information;
2. That Report LS05003 respecting Red Hill Valley Project Litigation Costs remain In Camera. "

(Note : Councillor McCarthy wanted a Motion to have Red Hill Creek Expressway legal fees brought out of camera, to be made public. It was suggested that this item be discussed in camera before voting on it and before bringing Councillor McCarthy's Motion forward.)

McCarthy : "This resolution speaks to the fact that the legal costs for the Red Hill Creek Expressway remain in camera. Can I have an explanation as to why we would want to do that?"

Mayor DiIanni : "Mr. Barkwell."

Peter Barkwell - City Solicitor : (pause until able to turn on his microphone) "First, I have to find the switch. This budgets set and the legal expenses incurred are privileged information - they're solicitor/client information."

"The privilege belongs to you, as Council. And, Council has the right to waive the privilege if it wishes. If Council is contemplating waiving the privilege, I would have one or two things to say on that in camera before Council makes that determination."

"But, it is the privilege of Council. And, it is up to Council whether or not to release the information publicly."

McCarthy : "Well, Mr. Mayor - and thank you very much, Peter. With regards to this issue, it is highly contentious. We've had difficulties with information coming out later. In fact, many Council Members were not privy to the escalating costs that were incurred by this City, and the citizens, resulting around this project."

"So, it would be my recommendation that, that in fact, we do waive the privilege and have that issue exposed for everybody, rather than having to go through the process of freedom of information again. And, have it exposed eventually."

"We've asked for continual updates on the legal costs. I really think it's prudent on our behalf to make sure that those costs are not over run." (hear a glass clink) "And I think it's a good process in terms of scrutiny. And when the public's involved, we're going to be a little bit more careful."

"So, I'd like to present a Motion on that. If that is going to be deterred. Or, if we have to go in camera to deal with that, then I recommend we defer this issue until such time as we go in camera and debate. But, that's the direction I'm going to insist that we take."

Mayor DiIanni : "Ya," (hear a glass clink) "what I was going to suggest is that, I do have a Seconder for moving this in camera. And then, when we come out, I'll accept a Motion. All Right? Okay. Councillor." (hear a glass clink) "Councillor Bruckler."

Bruckler : "Ya, with respect to the legal costs, there is a summary document, which is attached to the ." (could make out the word Councillor Bruckler used) "which talks about the budget for and the amount of money spent to date with respect to Red Hill Creek." (hear someone say something off microphone)

Mayor DiIanni : "Well, hang on. Let's hear the in camera explanations. And then, let's deal with it with the full information once we all know it. Okay? So, 9 and 10 - or rather 10, we'll reserve and we'll come back to after the in camera session."

"And, Item #11" (hear councillors say carried) "That's carried. Councillor Braden, may I have a Motion on the report as amended."

Kevin Christenson - City Clerk : "You should defer -"

Braden : "Mr. Mayor - "

Kevin Christenson - City Clerk : " - that Motion until you come out of camera because you're approving the Report in the absence of the - "

Mayor DiIanni : "Ah yes, okay. All right. Councillor Braden. Ya, we'll do the whole thing when we come out of camera."

Braden : "Sounds good."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you."

See Part #3
Starting with Item #6.4 - "Committee Reports" - Strategic Planning and Budgets Committee - Report 05-003, March 2, 2005