June 14, 2006 Report – Lister Block Excerpt Part 2 of 5

(Continued from Part #1 that ended partway through discussion on Committee Reports Item 6.9 - "Special Committee of the Whole, " Report 06-013, June 12, 2006)

Braden : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'm going to read my notes to make sure I'm not going to forget anything - and, I want be able - the big picture, as usual."

"We heard the comments from the promoter. And, we heard those lobbying on his behalf. Unfortunately, we've become fixated on one - " (hear someone say something off microphone) "pardon me?" (hear someone say something off microphone) "I thought I had the chair - do I have the chair - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - you do, you do. We're dealing with the amendment. But, - "

Braden : " - I'm setting the context for that. And, I hope you'll bear with me, thank you. I'll try again."

"We've heard the comments from the promoter and we've heard those lobbying on his behalf. Unfortunately, we've become fixated on one isolated symptom of urban decay - that being the Lister Block."

"What we desperately need is a realistic vision of our central Downtown, backed up by a practical strategy to realize this vision. This must - and I emphasize must - include a sustained financial commitment to Downtown buildings."

"However, we are aware that the City's obligations are firstly, to it's own infrastructure - which we've recently been currently under-funded to the tune of $100 million per year - that's a staff figure."

"Fortunately, after years of denial and avoidance, the Province and the Feds are coming to the table."

"Nevertheless, the reality is we acknowledge that we can't look after our own assets. And, we are letting them decay - similarly to what LIUNA has done with the Lister Block. We cannot afford to be spending millions on private enterprise, when we have other well-documented, needy priorities."

"In short, we are not in a position to support a sustained support program, beyond the existing programs we already have. So, we need to look at the impact of this one shot, isolated deal and predict, realistically, the consequences when the City's financial tap is quickly shut off."

"Can anyone expect this project to create a domino effect if we're literally paying for this building and receiving no ownership? The next developer - it could be me - turns up and all the pockets are empty. Can we expect them to invest without assistance?"

"Since there's presently a wide gap between the existing market circumstances Downtown and the generation of positive net revenues from real estate. There is only blind faith - wishful thinking, and political rhetoric to justify this unsubstantiated idealistic turnaround."

"We have policies in place for historic buildings. And, we have guidelines in Purchasing Policies to regulate our dealings with other businesses and to measure compliance."

"In this project, the proponent refuses to cooperate in our requests and reverts to" (hear a glass clink) "attacking - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - hold it. I've given him the floor, and I'm going to see it through. He's almost finished." (hear someone say something off microphone) "Please - allow the Chair some latitude; and allow the speaker some latitude. He's almost finished. Go ahead."

Braden : (couldn't hear Councillor Braden's first couple of words) " - . I've been very tolerant, Mr. Mayor - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - You have. So, go ahead."

Braden : "Thank you."

"We have policies in place for historic buildings. And, we have guidelines and purchasing policies to regulate our dealings with other businesses and measure compliance."

"In this project, the proponent refuses to cooperate in our request and reverts to attacking people for differing views."

"We all agree with the concept and requirement of fairness. But, in this project, curiously, we're willing to forfeit fairness. And, we are prepared to overlook the need for a cost-benefit analysis."

"I've actually ." (couldn't hear Councillor Braden's next word) "I can do it in five minutes. I guess - I'll read faster."

"But, this - " (hear giggles from Council and gallery) "But, this process is typical of a sole-sourcing at the exclusion of all other possibilities. Admittedly, there is only one genuine Lister Block. But, there are a hundred of historic buildings in our Downtown which deserve our consideration and maybe our financial support."

"I don't recall us setting any guidelines to support imitations of important buildings. The last time we had a major multi-million dollar proposal, we had similar hype, and frantic lobbying: Hamilton 's a leader. This'll put Hamilton on the map. It's the road to recovery. It's great for Downtown. We're going to save money. It's a good deal."

"In fact, it brought us embarrassment, suspicion, and an ugly legacy we want to hide from. You will remember, the promoter of the day, was the old Philip Environmental."

"The context of sole-sourcing is problematic to us all. We intentionally did not call for expressions of interest to improve Downtown. Against all of our guidelines - and - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - Councillor, I'm getting some pressure to, to bring you back on track." (hear someone say something off microphone) "Stop, I don't want to detract this - "

Braden : " - I'm setting the context, Mr. Mayor. I set the context. If you listen - if you want to go ahead with demolition. But, this is problematic and we're all going to wear it - "

Mayor DiIanni : "Well - "

Braden : " - this is, I think, although I'm thinking - well-written. It's sincere - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - It is. But, it's off topic. That's the issue - "

Braden : " - It's within the context of the demolition permit, Mr. Mayor - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - you almost done, now?"

Braden : "I'll be done in about one and a half minutes." (hear someone say something off microphone) "Yup." (hear someone say something off microphone)

Mayor DiIanni : "I known we're not. But, Councillor, give him another minute and a half. That's all he's asking for - a minute and a half - out of courtesy, let's do that."

Braden : "I appreciate that courtesy, Mr. Mayor. Let me find out where I was."

"The context of sole-sourcing is problematic. We intentionally did not call for expressions of interest to improve our Downtown. Against all our own guidelines. In effect, our articulated intentions. We chose one reputable developer and excluded all others. If anyone else had brought us an identical proposal to Council, we would have rejected it forthwith."

"Whether it was from Arthur Weisz, Habitat for Humanity - a threshold group, or Joe Blow construction, the answer would be forget it. Realistically, no business would put forward a proposal asking the City to pay for the building and providing - in exchange - rent for half the building for only 15 years. This would be attacked by the press and fully rejected by Council."

"In the beginning we were told, there was a good chance we could restore this building. Now, we're told, no. What happened? Both the City and the developer allowed the building to decay further in order to justify demolition. The City and the developer are in cahoots, here. We have our by-laws. And, we chose not to enforce them."

"So, let's imagine the building down with attractive benches, planters and a fence around the site. Would we entertain a proposal to provide a grant of ten to fifteen million dollars to build a new look-a-like building? The answer's obvious. When we wade down a slippery slope, and now we're being bullied - "

"I want to do something tangible for downtown - not a one-shot deal which is misdirected. I also want to build trust in our Government. If this goes ahead, it will cement the perception of unfairness and inequality. It will further demonstrate a lack of value to taxpayers money. It attacks the symptoms of urban blight. But, avoids the real problem. And, it will undoubtedly promote disrespect and mistrust. We are all responsible for this particular problem. But, it can be dealt with honestly, intelligently, holistically and with fairness. Anything else is completely unacceptable. I appreciate your tolerance."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you very much." (hear applause from some in gallery) "Councillor Jackson."

Jackson : "Well, Mr. Mayor, again now, if we're dealing with the amendment - I'm in support of the amendment. But then, I wanted to reserve the right to speak to the main Motion."

Mayor DiIanni : "Why don't you do so - why don't you do so, now." (hear someone say something off microphone) "All right - "

Jackson : " - deal with the 60-day amendment. I would request, please, Mr. Mayor. And then, - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - all right - "

Jackson : " - I want to be on the speaker's list - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - fair enough - "

Jackson : " - for the main Motion."

Mayor DiIanni : " - Others have taken some latitude. But, no problems. Councillor. So, do we have any first-time speakers. Councillor McCarthy, you've spoken already; Councillor Bratina's already spoken." (hear people start talking off microphone) "On the amendment, on the amendment. Anybody else? On the amendment. Yes."

Whitehead : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. First of all, I want to thank Councillor Braden for his deputation - although, it's not dealing with the amendment, it's dealing with the Main Motion. I appreciate it. And, it was well-presented. But, unfortunately, it's not dealing with the issue we're dealing with - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - Carry on - "

Whitehead : "And, that's the amendment. And, I certainly, think in the spirit of trying to find, I see a compromise taking - bringing all the stakeholders around the table. We have 60 days. Ultimately, the Province has the authority and ability to provide designation and cease demolition if they see the merit in the argument. I think that - and that's why I'll be supporting that particular amendment on the main Motion because I think - I heard from - many of the individuals that made deputations that they had some concerns with the process. And if, in fact, the Minister - at the end of the 60 days - and can't find a solution or compromise, we'll have to make a decision and let her judge whether that process was adequate or not."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. Councillor Kelly."

MOTION TO CALL THE QUESTION on the Amendment
(Kelly / Merulla - CARRIED)

Kelly : "Mr. Mayor, Moved by myself; Seconded by Councillor Merulla that we call the question on the amendment, please."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. All in favour of calling the question?" (hear councillors say carried) "That's carried, then."

VOTE ON AMENDMENT PUT to ADD CONDITION to part (a) : That the following recommendation be added to part (a) " That this consent to demolish and to repeal the designation as set out above not commence or be effective until 60 days from the date of this Council decision in order to allow further opportunity for the proponents and the Ministry of Culture to further review heritage matters related to this development. "
(Merulla / Whitehead - Amendment CARRIED)

Mayor DiIanni : "On the amendment?" (hear councillors say carried; and hear some glasses clink) "That's carried."

"Against? Against, sorry? Against the amendment?" (transcriber did not see any against the amendment) "It's carried."

DISCUSSION ON THE MAIN MOTION (as Amended) :

Mayor DiIanni : "On the Main Motion, now. On the Main Motion. Councillor Mc -" (hear someone say something off microphone) " - as amended, indeed. Councillor, Councillor McCarthy."

McCarthy : "And, I was glad to hear Councillor Braden speak because I wanted to raise the same issues from a financial perspective."

"The Attorney General, Sheila Fraser, gave a very blistering critique of the Federal Liberals and their wasteful spending of taxpayers money. And, she chose 55 Bay Street North as the over-spending that the Liberals were responsible for."

"And, it says here, 'And, she has picked out Hamilton 's new Federal Building , yesterday, as an example of Government's waste. Fraser said Ottawa 's decision to lease 55 Bay Street North is costing taxpayers $13 million more than if the Liberal Government had purchased it.' "

"That's right about the figure that this Lister Block is costing us over and above what any other leaseable space would be in the Downtown core. In an area that is surrounded by a combined income of two working person home income of $48,600 - two people earn, in the Downtown core, $48,600. And, we're talking about putting the Taj Maj Hall to house us in a building that's surrounded by those people."

"The Labourers' International Union [LIUNA] was originally put in place to protect the working class people. And, in my view, I am sorry to say this is exploitation of the working class people."

"It's - we can't even - when we come to Budget time - we can't even afford flowers in our boulevards. We looked at $50 million worth of Budget increases, this year. We cut - we cut everything. And, we were going to go back and cut more - had the Ontario Government not come in and kicked in $20 million for Social Service costs. Because why? We're needy. We're a needy Municipality."

"When you look at the taxes that the average person pays in this community that are much higher than any other community, this is not justifiable. This is the reason they pay higher taxes."

"When a government - when our Government - makes a decision that it spends money that's surplus; that's superficial - that's wasteful spending. If you went out for, er, you know - and I'm not going to speak to this now - but expect it, if hopefully there's a stay of execution on this and there's a chance for sober second thoughts, it's not that this money is, you know, collecting dust off of a shelf. We don't have this extra money hanging around."

"Next Budget that we go through - which will probably be in a month or two - we're going to be looking at cutting more. We don't have this kind of money to spend. And, it's unnecessary to spend it. So, I'm obviously voting against, against the Lister Block. I think it's a waste of spending. I don't believe it's the responsible thing to do. And, quite honestly, in good conscience, when you look at what we're surrounded with, it's arrogant on our behalf to even assume that we need grade eight class office space to house ourselves. Thank you."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you." (hear applause from some in gallery) "Any other speakers? If not - Councillor Jackson. Yes, Councillor Jackson. I'd like to put myself on the" (hear a glass clink) "speakers list, as well. Councillor McHattie."

Jackson : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor - "

Mayor DiIanni : " - to the Main Motion - Sorry, Councillor Jackson. We're speaking to the main Motion which is the demolition - the Main Motion." (hear someone say 'as amended') "- right, as amended."

Jackson : " - Thanks, Mr. Mayor. The - I suppose the easiest thing for me to do tonight, Mr. Mayor, would be to politically vote against this. There's three or four reasons why it would be the easier thing to do politically: #1, the - from the Heritage Committee's standpoint and the Heritage Community, the preservation and restoration is not - from their standpoint - what it should be;"

"Secondly, the $24 net per square foot that Mr. McCabe has told us about for renting this Lister Block by the City, is about double of what it would be elsewhere in the City that we could get lease space;"

"Thirdly, in the years I've been on Council, whenever I vote for things to help the Downtown, I tend to lose some votes in my constituency because I have people in my constituency who say they never go Downtown - never want to go Downtown - never will go Downtown."

"And fourthly, Mr. Mayor, with the two proponents, tonight, from Highrise and LIUNA, I guess there must be something wrong when they are part of some projects in our community."

"And, with the previous speaker - I mean, I'm actually pleased that finally Canadian taxpayers across the country are finally - put some money towards some refurbishing of our Downtown with the new Federal Building . So, as far as I'm concerned, it's about time that Hamilton started to get it's share."

"Anyways, Mr. Mayor, having said that - and that would have been the easier vote for me - I am going to support the request here, tonight, for the demolition permit from Highrise and LIUNA, Mr. Mayor - for the following reasons:"

"I want it so that our own citizens and more tourists will come to our Downtown and enjoy our Downtown. Four or five years ago, Mr. Mayor, the previous term of Council, we had several workshops led by your predecessor Mayor Wade. And, we were on the Council together. And, what came out at the top of every one of those workshops was image of the City of Hamilton . And, that still is a critical component of what we want to do."

"Mr. Mayor, I - there will be construction jobs to this project - if it moves ahead. I believe there'll be a positive domino effect for our community and Downtown."

"I believe, Mr. Mayor, there will be future commercial taxes, as well, that will come forward. And, the commitment by Highrise and LIUNA have said on Monday that they have potential tenants lined up. Mr. Mayor, we need to continue some momentum for Downtown and for Downtown renewal. And, I love our Downtown. And, I know it will not be what it once was in its heyday in the 40s, 50s, and 60s because of growth in other areas of our community. But, darn it all, we've got to continue to work towards maintaining some momentum for our Downtown."

"We have this huge eyesore, smack in the middle of the core. You know - on Monday, I heard some speakers from the former suburban communities. And, I've heard some of those speakers at other public meetings, Mr. Mayor. And, they have said, along with my suburban colleagues to stop the urban sprawl; put a halt to it. Tom, we need to do things differently. And, for Goodness Sakes, they say, consistently: fix your Downtown before anything else. Well, here's an opportunity to do that in one major piece of the puzzle."

"Mr. Mayor, I don't care that some people are going to stand in ridicule of LIUNA. But, I'm going to tell you, their success rate has been really tremendous in this community. And, I'll point to nothing else than the CN Station as part of my argument. I'll bet you without that conversion, Mr. Mayor, that thousands, upon thousands of people the last five or six years would have never had any reason to go to the North End of our City. And yet, I've been down there - weddings, banquets, conventions, you name it. And people just enjoy that fabulous restored facility, Mr. Mayor."

"In fact, I'll bet you that there were probably Heritage Components and people in our community that probably were not pleased with the reproduction of LIUNA Station - the old CN Station. And, I even remember what the Heritage people, Mr. Mayor, about two or three years ago in this Council Chamber - even a small issue in Ancaster, if I recall, it's St. John Anglican Church. I remember on one side of the gallery stood the Church and its parishioners - a lot of them seniors who wanted an expansion of St. John Anglican Church on Wilson Street to move forward. And, over on the other side of the gallery were Heritage people who said - I believe it was that Gurnett House - could not be touched beside St. John Anglican Church and thus opposed the expansion of the Church. While the Church - I supported the Church expansion - especially in this day and age of Church growth - that isn't, that doesn't happen all that often, anymore, Mr. Mayor. There was an example where, the Gurnett House, I understood, through a source, just literally collapsed when the demolition took place, Mr. Mayor. And, the Church - and I've driven by that Church on Wilson Street in Ancaster. And, it looks beautiful. The original Sanctuary's in place. And, the expansion - the growth of the Church is moving forward."

"So, Mr. Mayor, sometimes we could be Heritage preservationists to a fault. And, I respect the desires and passion on that side of the argument. But, sometimes it can be to a fault."

"Mr. Mayor, when I had my two former small businesses, I had one on James South - just past the GO Train station; I had one at Limeridge Mall. And, I can tell you that the James South store was a much more difficult one for some of the reasons that we're discussing - and have discussed with Downtown and the things that we still need to do to help Downtown."

"But, Mr. Mayor, I can tell you that success - success breeds success. People love being where people are. And, Mr. Mayor, for that reason, I believe the - that the restoration - that the demolition of Lister Block - moving forward on a new Lister Block will just have a terrifically positive effect for our Downtown."

"And, so many times we hear people talk about the safety of Downtown, some of the boarded up ugliness of Downtown. Here's an opportunity where we can do something positive moving in the right direction. And, Mr. Mayor, for those reasons, I think we need to seize this opportunity. And, I will support the permit. Thanks, Mr. Mayor."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you, very much. Councillor McHattie."

McHattie : "Thanks very much, Mr. Mayor. And, certainly it's good news, tonight, to hear that there's a 60-day period for us to think more about this and to investigate various options that might be available."

"I think that really provides the opportunity to seek the sort of consensus that we need to seek more in this community. Too often, I respectfully suggest, as we vote on things like this - and there's big winners and big losers - and I suggest as a legacy to that - a legacy not only on a particular decision. And, in this case, perhaps the LIUNA building coming down - if it went in that direction. That's the physical part of that - But, a legacy when it comes to people feeling strongly about the future of Hamilton . Their perspective, whether it's the Arts Community, young people in the City; folks particularly interested in heritage and other ideas. And, if we hear what they have to say, and we go ahead and vote ." (tape stopped, sorry)

". and, I know we have a number of significant heritage comments that came up the other night, and things that are very clear. We had very clear comments from the Peer reviewers, the City staff, and the Municipal Heritage Committee that the proper process wasn't followed in terms of the Heritage impact assessment. That was fairly straight forward. And, that needs to be addressed. And, to have that opportunity to do that, with the Minister's intervention provide the 60 days. And, kudos, of course to the sta - to all the stakeholders involved in that conversation you had, Mr. Mayor, to agree to that 60 days and provide us with the opportunity."

"I'm hoping that we can find a win-win solution to this. I don't believe the parties are that far apart. Everybody believes the Lister Block's important. Everybody believes that Downtown Hamilton is extremely important and it needs to be bolstered by a rejuvenated Lister Block. Those are common things. And, when we take about mediation and those kinds of approaches to decision-making, or finding decisions, we want to focus on interest - not positions."

"Interests are flexible. We have the common interest in the Downtown; we have the common interest in the Lister Block; common interest in working together as a community. I suggest there's a lot more common interest to this than there is hard positions. We don't need hard positions in this, we need to work on the interests. And, the 60-day period's going to allow us to do that. So, I appreciate that; important issues all around. And, I thank Council for their decision to go in that direction tonight. Thanks."

Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. I was next on the list if Councillor Samson will recognize me and take the Chair."

Samson as Deputy Mayor and Acting Chair : "I recognize you."

See Part #3
Continuing with Committee Report Item 6.9 - "Special Committee of the Whole," Report 06-013, June 12, 2006