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July 14, 2004 Report
9:30 am (9:37 am )
Lunch at 12:30 pm
Resume at 1:00 pm (1:07 pm)
Members of Council (present):
- Mayor Larry DiIANNI
- Ward # 1 Brian McHATTIE
- Ward # 2 Vacant
- Ward # 3 Bernie MORELLI
- Ward # 4 Sam MERULLA
- Ward # 5 Chad COLLINS
- Ward # 6 Tom JACKSON
- Ward # 7 Bill KELLY
- Ward # 8 Terry WHITEHEAD
- Ward # 9 Phil BRUCKLER
- Ward #10 Maria PEARSON
- Ward #11 David L. MITCHELL
- Ward #12 Murray FERGUSON
- Ward #13 Vacant
- Ward #14 Dave BRADEN
- Ward #15 Andrea McCARTHY
Members of Staff
- Mark Amorosi, Director, Employment & Client Services
- Peter Barkwell - City Solicitor
- Lee Ann Coveyduck - Acting City Manager (a.k.a.General Manager, Planning and Development)
- Rose Caterini - Deputy Clerk, Manager - Legislative Services
- Peter Delulio - Planning & Development
- Mary Gallagher, COW Co-Ordinator (City Clerk's Office)
- Beth Goodger - Acting Director, Waste Management
- Catherine Graham - General Manager, Human Resources
- Salter Hayden, Deputy Clerk, Manager - Elections
- Jim Kay - Acting General Manager - Emergency Services
- Ron Marini - Director of Downtown Renewal, Planning & Development
- Guy Paparella - Red Hill Valley Project
- Joe-Anne Priel - General Manager, Public Health and Community Services
- Joe Rinaldo - General Manager, Finance and Corporate Services
- Scott Stewart - Director (Capital Planning & Implementation) CPI, Public Works
- Bryan Shynal - Director - Operations & Maintenance, Public Works
Members of the Media present:
- Maggie Hughes - Independent
- Ken Mann - CHML
- Eric McGuinness - Hamilton Spectator
- Matt Jehle - independent
- Kevin Werner - Brabant
1. DECLARATIONS OF INTEREST
Ferguson : Councillor Ferguson declares an interest on Item 4.1 Monthly Status Report of Tenders and Requests for Proposals for May 2004, PW-04-18 (HSW) - family member involved in that tender.
Jackson : "Mr. Mayor, I'd like to declare and interest to avoid a conflict on item 7.9, as well as with the request that's come in for item 5.2 to be heard as a delegation, as my name was mentioned, I'd like to declare an interest, please. Thank you."
Kelly : "Mr. Mayor, the same two items" (7.9 and 5.2) "for me, as well."
Whitehead : same two items
DiIanni : "And, the Mayor, as well, declares the same items . . ."
2. CHANGES TO THE AGENDA (Kelly / Bruckler - CARRIED)
3. APPROVAL OF MINUTES (Collins / Pearson - CARRIED)
3.1 Special Committee of the Whole - June 30, 2004
(http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
committee-of-the-whole/2004/Jun30s/Minutes.pdf)
DiIanni : "Thank you. Members of Council, may I have a verbal motion to approve the minutes of the special meeting of June 30 th , 2004? Moved by Collins; seconded by Braden - seconded by, not by Braden, seconded by Pearson. All in favour, that's?" (Can't hear anyone say anything, so the Mayor calls again) "All in favour?" (hear councillors say carried) "Carried. Members of Council, now I'll" (didn't hear what Mayor said) "verbal report" (McHattie clinks his glass.) "Councillor McHattie."
McHattie : "Sorry, Mr. Mayor, I should have asked this perhaps, before. Maybe I'll just ask it quickly and see if it's the time to do so. We have an item 12.1 'Private and Confidential' having read that report, I can't see why that's being in Camera."
Mayor DiIanni : "I'm sorry, which one are you on, now?"
McHattie : "It's item 12.1 - just in terms of how the agenda's set up and I should have mentioned this maybe a couple of moments ago, but I just wanted to get a sense of, I knew it could wait until we could get there or something, but it's not apparent to me why this is in camera, having read the report. So, I'd either like get an explanation of that or we can wait until we get to that point or . . . "
Mayor DiIanni : "Well, we, well we're dealing with the agenda now , yes I've got the report and the report does state in pointed out by the Clerk that subject to section 4.12, subsection (f) of the City's procedural by-law and section 55 of the Ontario Municipal Act, this report is private and confidential and not for release as the subject matter pertains to the receiving of advice that is subject to solicitor client privilege - including communications necessary for that purpose. And, this is the report that deals with the use of Ferox fuel added to the City fleet operations. And, what we usually do is deal with it if we have legal advice to go in camera, deal with it in camera and then make a decision about what is to be released if people wish to do that.
McHattie : "Ya, it's just, I can understand, I guess, the general comments, but it's not wanting to go into the report and discussion right now, of course. But, there doesn't appear to be anything in there to me unless there's things that are not in here that we need to discuss. It's the result of something that occurred and appears to be straight forward - at least as far as the report goes. I just felt a bit reticent when it comes to going in camera, as you know we're criticized often about going in camera too often. So, that's the reason I bring it up."
Mayor DiIanni : "Alright, just on the setting of this and of course council's decision of whether we're going to recall on this issue or not on this issue. But, just on the process at this point. I don't want to get into the reports just yet. Councillor McCarthy."
McCarthy : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I have the same concerns that Councillor McHattie raised, in fact, when I went through the agenda, it didn't seem to meet any of the criteria with which we have traditionally gone in camera for. So, perhaps it would be helpful to hear from Mr. Barkwell as to why it was set up as a private confidential matter."
Mayor DiIanni : "Mr. Barkwell, you ready to talk to that right now?"
Peter Barkwell (Staff - City Solicitor): "Through you, Mr. Mayor, there is some legal advice to be imparted to you, after which Council will be able to make a determination as to whether to keep the matter in camera or not. So, my recommendation at this point, would be to deal with the legal advice in camera ant then make a determination after hearing from me there whether you want to keep the report in camera at that time."
Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. And, that's the usual procedure that we follow, as well. On the issue we've clarified okay, we'll get to that and we can make a determination on that. Members of Council, however, I would like to announce, today, a verbal report on the costs associated with the Red Hill Project, which were requested. Who is going to provide that to us - Mr. Paparella, go ahead."
Guy Paparella (Red Hill Valley Project): "Thank you, your worship, Chris Murray wasn't able to be here today, so, he's briefed me on the issue and I have this information to pass on to you. As you recall from the June 7, 2004, Public Works, Infrastructure and Environment Committee meeting, Councillor McHattie requested an update on the extra costs incurred by the Red Hill Valley Project. Although construction has progressed on the Red Hill Valley Project, some of it has come with some additional costs to the City - more specifically activities of opponents of the project resulted in the City spending nearly $1.2 million to date. And, that's from last July to now. These expenses were not anticipated within the construction budget, but were utilized through the contingency budget. The expenses incurred related to a number of categories including legal expenses, litigation disbursements for expert services, security and some additional construction costs. Furthermore, the two most recent contracts for the main-line grating had nearly $475, 000 worth of - what we would call 'extras,' soft costs - as a result of previous protest activities, in order to secure the site, they were put into the contracts that would not have otherwise been included in the tenders but felt most prudent to do so under the circumstances."
Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. Any questions or comments? Councillor Braden."
Braden : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor - just along that line, in terms of additional costs that are either being spent already or that are presumed to be coming. Do we have a budget for those people who are making noises about noise - no pun intended - but, you know they are concerned about air quality and having their house sold. Is there going to be a budget line to deal with those issues that are going to come up around the implementation?"
Mayor DiIanni : "Isn't that an item for your committee - the" (Red Hill Creek Expressway) "Implementation Committee to . . ." (Councillor Braden speaks off microphone and asks a question - could not hear what he said. And, Mayor DiIanni redirects to staff.) "I don't know whether - do you have an answer to that?"
Guy Paparella (Red Hill Valley Project): "Through you, your worship, if you're talking about whether or not there will be compensation, what we have in place is mitigation, which is being paid for included in the contracts - in other words noise walls and things of that nature, which will be implemented in order to ensure the public safety and make sure that those impacts, if you will, are being mitigated. So, there is contingencies and there are plans for constructing those types of mitigation measures that are included in the contracts, but anything beyond that, if you're referring to compensation after the fact - no there wouldn't be anything of that nature.
Braden : (Councillor Braden starts speaking with his microphone off, and then eventually turns it on.) "With regard to those things that are not part of the contract - but, you know there was this talk about triple glazing and air-conditioning, etc. etc. I don't want to go down that road too far. What about a budge for all those things, with our outside contracts."
Guy Paparella (Red Hill Valley Project): "Right now it" (pause and problem with taping sound) " there is some contingency gone before . . . if you want to add further mitigating measures . . . have to come back to Council and get approval for those types of things that you mentioned."
Braden : "Thank you."
Mayor DiIanni : "Councillor McHattie, did you signal that you wish to speak? Okay."
McHattie : "Thanks, Mr. Mayor, just a clarification from Guy, through you. Sorry, is it $1.2 million plus $475, 000 that we're talking about that's associated with - the additional costs that's associated with the protests - protest activities. And, I'm trying to understand why this is being identified for us, now. And, I guess the question I would have is: are those costs within the contingency budget, or are you asking us to add additional money from some source?"
Guy Paparella (Red Hill Valley Project): "Through you, your worship, right now it's being -it was a request, actually, by yourself, for this information. It isn't something that was contemplated. Because of what has gone on, we are now drawing on that contingency budget in order to incorporate it into the contract - that's the $475, 000 for future and in order to, obviously, deal with what has gone in the past year, we've already expended $1.2 million. So, yes, it is the amalgam of the two - and rising actually, because every other contract has to include further security measures and that will increase the cost again."
McHattie : "So, it's within the contingency amount."
Guy Paparella (Red Hill Valley Project): "At this time, it is. . . ."
Mayor DiIanni : "Do I need, Madam Clerk, we're just going to receive the verbal report . . . moved by Kelly; seconded by Pearson - all in favour in receipt of the verbal report. That's carried. Councillor Whitehead."
Whitehead : "Just on that, Mr. Mayor, I was wondering if I could get the verbal report on paper so I can . . ."
Mayor DiIanni : "Sure, that'd be a good idea. Mr. Paparella, if we could have that in writing. . ."
3. CONSENT ITEMS
Mayor DiIanni : "Members of Council, you have before you Consent Items 4.1 to 4.6. Is there any item you wish to have moved to discussion? ,. . . seconded by Jackson." (One of the Councillors, not sure who, asks to have an item heard.) "Okay, which item councillor? 4.5? All right, so other than 4.5, I have a mover Kelly; seconded by Braden consent - the remaining of the items, all in favour" (hear councillors say carried) "That's carried, 4.5 go ahead, Councillor."
Jackson : "Thanks, Mr. Mayor, this is about Freedom of Information requests and under the Municipal Freedom of Information Protection Privacy Act,"
(http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/
Statutes/English/90m56_e.htm)
"just to be receiving for information, I simply want to know, I know there were one or two of my colleagues that in the past have requested information, ran in to some either bureaucratic or financial stumbling blocks and I just want to know - I know your office was hoping to be part of clarifying and clearing up that matter and I just want to try to, obviously prevent any elected official, who on behalf of the constituents they represent, require information that that would be available to them. So, I just wonder if process has been cleared up in that regard because I found that somewhat embarrassing. I understand where staff were coming from, but I just found that somewhat embarrassing, Mr. Mayor, so when I saw the item here, I didn't speak specifically to it, but I just wondered if that matter involving Councillors' requests in the future has been cleared up. Thank you."
Mayor DiIanni : "Salter?"
Salter Hayden (Deputy Clerk) : "Through you, Mr. Mayor, this report just addresses the annual report that comes out. In terms of the information, I believe that - we're talking about a specific request in question, there was a whole lot of information that had to be obtained. And, I understand in this particular instance, there was committee or Council refusal to have staff provide that information, so it had to go through Freedom of Information. My understanding is, that if Council directs that information, they obtain, and the information is obtained, period. Now, if Council somehow says that information is too lengthy, it's too involved, no we don't want staff to do that - then the other avenue would be to go through Freedom of Information. That's my understanding."
Jackson : "Salter, I appreciate that, Mr. Mayor, for me it's still an area that's ambiguous and somewhat confusing. If an individual member of Council, or two or three, are requesting information, why they would need committee or Council's support. So, I'm not here to prolong this debate today, but I don't want to lose sight of it when I saw the Consent Item, I thought it was an opportunity to remind ourselves and see if we can resolve this one way or the other, because I just - again, elected officials on behalf of their constituents seeking information, it should be available to them and no financial hardship should be forth-coming. Thanks, Mr. Mayor."
Mayor DiIanni : "Councillor Collins."
Collins : "Mr. Mayor, we had discussed this issue at Strategic Budget and Planning, if you recall, and I think we last left it with the Clerk to hold a round-table discussion with Members of Council who were interested in going through this. And so, we will have the discussion, I would hope, over the next several weeks, in that regard, to determine exactly the issues that Councillor Jackson's raised. What authority does Council or Committee have to override certain requests for information? We had a lengthy debate - "
Mayor DiIanni : "We did, we did and that item was Tabled, if you recall."
Collins : "Right."
Mayor DiIanni : "We need to come back to it and Councillor McCarthy has a comment , then I'd like to just sort of add my contribution to it as well, Councillor."
McCarthy : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor, I wanted to congratulate all the staff that work on this. We have, we're ranked number two in compliance rate. And, I think that's an incredible amount of work that they do to gather that information and to get that kind of work accomplished within one month of any request is very significant and should be rewarded. Thank you."
Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you, and that's a good point made and well taken. Councillor Merulla."
Merulla : "I didn't really want to -
Mayor DiIanni : "I disagree with that." (in friendly jest)
Merulla : " - ah, I didn't really want to speak on the issue, but that 90 per cent compliance is only related to those that they actually accept. If you look at the denials, you're probably looking at about 30 per cent."
Mayor DiIanni : "The point, I guess, is that this process - I mean we're handling it well, as compared to other municipalities and we need to congratulate staff on that, but it's not a perfect process and the issue that you talked about, that had the Councillors Table a freedom of information request, which is very unusual - and I was on record as saying that - that you know, in any organization - especially an elected one, such as ours - Councillors need access to information. We need to sort that out, because essentially, staff had conflicting requests. A committee said, you don't need to provide the information, and some Councillors felt that they needed that information. And, so, when staff gets the conflicting requests, how are they supposed to sort through that? And, I think it's up to us to provide the direction and Councillor, you remember correctly that we said we'd have a round-table discussion. Just trying to address the process - and we intend on doing that. Okay? Hopefully, it'll happen within the next two weeks. But, we certainly intend on doing that. Okay, thank you. So, on 4.5 then I need - moved by Jackson; seconded by Pearson. All in favour? That's carried."
4.1 Monthly Status Report of Tenders and Requests for Proposals for
May 2004 (FCS04023(d) (City Wide)
(http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
committee-of-the-whole/2004/Jul14/FCS04023_d.pdf)
4.2 To incorporate Certain City Land into Various Streets by By- law
(PW04077) (Affects Wards 6, 9 and 12)
4.3 Temporary Closure of the South Leg of King Street and Hughson Street for the Downtown Hamilton BIA Street Festival (PW04078) (Ward 2)
4.4 Stop Control List - July 14, 2004 (PW04038(d))
4.5 Freedom of Information Requests - 2003 Annual Report
(FCS04096) (City Wide)
4.6 Removal of Holding Symbol for 1051 Garner Road West (Ancaster)
- Calloway Real Estate Investment Trust (PD04192) (Ward 1 2 )
(to be distributed)
4. DELEGATION REQUEST
Mayor DiIanni : "Members of Council, you have before you Delegation request 5.1 from Mr. Brian Docherty who wishes to address Ferox Fuel additive of the City's fleet operations. Councillor Collins."
Collins : "Mr. Mayor, this was bumped from the Committee process and I'd just ask that it might be better to hold this, just prior to going into camera. It's going to be a very long meeting to hear the delegation now, then to hear the in camera portion a couple of hours from now, probably won't make a lot of sense."
Mayor DiIanni : "So let's set that aside for now . . . probably that is a good suggestion."
5.1 Request by Mr. Brian Docherty requesting the opportunity to speak to Report respecting Use of Ferox Fuel Additive in City Fleet Operations
Mayor DiIanni : "I'm going to turn the Chair over for the next item, 5.2, to Councillor Ferguson for disposition."
Item # 5.2 - Request by Joanna Chapman requesting to speak - regarding Compliance Audit and Additional violations of the Municipal Act
Ferguson : "Members of Council, you have before you your delegation request 5.2 from Ms. Joanna Chapman respecting Compliance Audit and additional violations of the Municipal Act. What is your pleasure with respect to this request?" (hear some councillors off microphone say hear it.) Moved by Councillor Braden that we hear it now; seconded by Councillor McHattie. Any further discussion? All in favour? Opposed?" (voting was done by show of hands) "Carried. Okay, we'll entertain Ms. Chapman now. Correct? As, delegation status." (technical set-up before Ms. Chapman speaks.) "Ms. Chapman, whenever you're ready."
Joanna Chapman : "Can you hear me now?"
Ferguson : "Yes."
Joanna Chapman : "Yes. Thank you. There are three matters which I'd like to address this morning . . . to candidates who ran in the 2003 Municipal elections. Thank you." Read her presentation.
Ferguson : "Thank you, Ms. Chapman. Any questions of Ms. Chapman from the Committee. Hearing none, I would thank you for your delegation. Committee at your pleasure, you want to deal with it now, or do you want to deal with it at the end? I'm sorry. Rose?"
Rose Caterini - Deputy Clerk, Legislative : "Mr. Chairman, there's a report under 7.9 on the -"
Ferguson : "You want to deal with 7.9 at that point? Okay, I'll turn the Chair back to Mayor DiIanni."
Item # 5.3 - Request by Dan O'Hare, representative from Dan Greer Enterprises Ltd requesting to speak to Report - regarding Purchase of Forestry Wood Chippers - Replacing Unit Nos. 109637 and 150535
(See staff report:
http://www.hamilton.ca/Clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
committee-of-the-whole/2004/Jul14/PW04079.pdf)
Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you Councillor. Members of Council, you have before you added delegation request Item #5.3 from Dan Greer, respecting Item # 7.6 on today's agenda: 'Purchase of Forestry Wood Chippers.' What is your pleasure with respect to this request?" (don't hear anyone saying anything) "I need an expression to receive; to agree; to allow - there's a staff report and the report is Item 7.6 on today's agenda and staff is ready to talk to this, as well. Councillor Jackson."
Jackson : "Well, Mr. Mayor, can I just ask through you to the Clerk, the nature of this request pertaining to that item - is it because this individual takes a different point of view than the recommendation. Can I just get a clarification on that please?"
Mayor DiIanni : "It is and it does. The individual, I think, will argue that his bid is lower and provide the same service. Staff is of a different opinion and I'll turn it over to Scott Stewart to talk to you."
Jackson : "Thanks, Mr. Mayor."
Scott Stewart - Director (Capital Planning & Implementation) CPI, Public Works : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Really, this representative comes in and would want to speak, their bid was the lowest bid. The bid that we brought forward today is the lowest acceptable bid for staff, there was a number of issues. Process is very clear. It really falls into a public safety concerns and Bryan Shynell's here and can address . . ." (couldn't hear the rest of his sentence - static on tape.)
Jackson : "Well, Mr. Mayor, based on what Scott has said and pertaining to the Ward Councillor, who I believe the initial request was addressed to, I don't have any difficulty in hearing this delegation, but I'd like to hear from the Ward Councillor, as well. Thanks Mr. Mayor. I'll move it at the appropriate time, if that's all right, thank you."
Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. Councillor Bruckler."
Bruckler : "Mr. Mayor, I would certainly recommend that we hear the delegation. I think there's some good information to be imparted and I'd like the fellow Councillors to be able to hear that part to consider the report."
Mayor DiIanni : "Moved and seconded. All in favour?" (hear Councillors say carried) "That's carried. Mr. Greer." (technical set up for delegation.)
Ryan O'Hare (representing Dan Greer Enterprises Ltd.) : "Good morning, Mr. Mayor, Council. My name is Ryan O'Hare. I'm here to represent Dan Greer Enterprises, which is a local sales and services dealership within the City of Hamilton. I'd like to thank you for the opportunity for me to talk with you today. I'm not here to complain about losing a tender quote, for 2 wood chippers. Trust me, I've lost other tenders before this one. What I do want to discuss is your process. I do not intend to point fingers at individuals or embarrass anyone in this discussion. As you know, the City of Hamilton recently tendered 2 wood chippers based on the Vermeer BC1400 specification. We were low bid but lost for perceived safety reasons. This issue is that the City of Hamilton is not a business and needs to operate at a higher level. The City must proceed - processes that are not fair, but also have the appearance of fairness. Both of this machines were submitted for Tender; met the same specifications. This includes, the ANSI" (American National Safety Institute standards: http://www.ansi.org)" Z133 Standards for the American National Structure Institute for Wood Chippers" (could not find this website) "This group has high safety standards for the design of the infeed on a wood chipper. Yes, our automatic shut-off is different than the Vermeer, but it meets the same safety standards. Eighty-three percent (83%) of your current fleet of wood chippers that the City of Hamilton uses do not have any type of safety feature such as this. If safety is important, as important as we are told, how can the City of Hamilton risk the limbs of other workers on a daily basis. Obviously, the new requirements are upgrades. The goal of reducing the risk to your staff - I get it - the problem is, both machines do this. They're both safe. As to the appearance of fairness, during our demonstration, we were treated to indifference from your employees who, incidentally, was sporting a 'Vermeer' hat. When we lost the tender, we had no question why. We were also asked to provide references, which were never contacted. If we had no chance of winning and this was a Closed Tender, why not tell us ahead of time. It would have saved us about a $1,000 in expenses and lots of frustration. As I said, at the beginning of my talk. I came here to discuss your process. When a Tendered machine meets all specifications, and is low bid, yet fails to win, then I have to question your process. Thank you."
Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you, Mr. Greer," (actually referring to representative of Dan Greer Enterprises, speaker Ryan O'Hare) "any quesitons or comments? Councillor Bruckler.
Bruckler : "I think, obviously, I'm not in favour of the staff recommendation with respect to -"
Mayor DiIanni : "We're going to deal with the staff recommendation when we deal with that report. But, on -"
Bruckler : "With respect to the safety - and this is Ryan, actually - Ryan O'Hare - Ryan, with respect to the safety features between the Vermeer and the Morbaric Unit with Greer sells, can you, perhaps, explain a little bit of the differences between those two?"
Ryan O'Hare (representing Dan Greer Enterprises Ltd.) : "The difference is that there's - with our unit, is a patent that we've purchased which are safety cables that come down at the last point of the infeed. What Vermeer has is a bar on the rear infeed that you can kick with your legs. Now, proper loading safety, which would be recommended by all employees, would be to load from the rear of the machine. Worst case scenario - I mean this has never happened in the Province of Ontario that anybody's ever been physically harmed by going into a wood chipper in the last 10 years that I know of - is to grab these cables to shut off the feed wheels. Where Vermeer is selling a kick feature for your legs. That's basically the safety feature. They're both equally as safety."
Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. Staff, did you have a comment? Bryan."
Bryan Shynal - Director - Operations & Maintenance, Public Works : "Through you, Mr. Mayor, we're available for questions. I do have some pictures of the two types of safety features. And, I think it may be helpful to show those and explain how they actually function so that the relative merits of each can be fully understood."
Mayor DiIanni : "Did we want to deal with this now or do you want to wait until the item on the Planning and Economic Development agenda? Deal with it with the report, at the report, and so hang on to your information and Mr. - Ryan you'll be here to hear the discussions, although Councillor Mitchell has a comment."
Mitchell : "Just through you, Mr. Mayor, to Mr. Ryan" (referring to Ryan O'Hare from Dan Greer Enterprises) "Mr. Ryan, does the equipment that your proprietor sells, is it sold throughout Southern Ontario, or are other Municipalities using it, like can you fill us in on that, please?"
Ryan O'Hare (representing Dan Greer Enterprises Ltd.) : "The Town of Oakville has purchased 3 units from us, in the last year. Mississauga Hydro is a main supporter of this identical unit. They have two in their fleet - which I have provided references. We've got many municipalities and local contractors and I also even have letters of reference using this feature. This safety feature on Vermeer is also an option. I don't believe it's used on all their wood chippers. It's just purely a way to raise a Tender Spec, to ensure brand preference."
Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you. And thank you, sir."
Item # 5.4 Request by David Harris respecting "Glanbrook Hills," Amendment to the Township of Glanbrook Official Plan and Amendment to Glanbrook Zoning By-law No. 464, for Lands Located at 8029 Twenty Road East, Glanbrook (PD04168) of the Planning and Economic Development Committee Report
Mayor DiIanni : "Members of Council, another added delegation request Item 5.4 David Harris respecting Item 13 of Planning and Economic Development Committee Report considering, which will be considered this afternoon respecting application to amend the Stoney Creek Zoning By-law regarding 2041 Crompton Way in Ward 10 Stoney Creek. What is your pleasure? Councillor Mitchell." (Hear Mitchell in background moving to hear the delegation.) "Moving to hear; seconded by Braden. All in favour? That's carried. Mr. Harris."
David Harris (delegate) : "Thank you, Mr. Mayor and Councillors, for hearing me this morning. I do have a CD with 2 pictures, which I'll be referring to, if that's possible?" (momentary delay while set up readied to show CD pictures) "What I have here is . . . it's a - first of all, just to give a little background - on July the 6 th , I appeared before the Planning and Economic Development Committee to make a citizen's presentation and during the presentations, I noticed that the developer's representative and City Staff did not emphasize the encroachment of the contour lines on the wetlands of Twenty Mile Creek. And - I'm going to see if I can stop this slide show here - now, what I'm referring to is that during the presentations, the, this line is where the presentations ended." (Mr. Harris referring to picture on screen - same as the map handed out to Members of Council) "What happens, between this point and the top of embankment are 10 contour lines. This red line is the top of embankment, here. You can see that the contour lines - "
Mayor DiIanni : "Mr. Harris, let me just interrupt you for a second. Just for the sake of the record -"
David Harris : "Yes."
Mayor DiIanni : "The script that I have before me from the Clerk references Crompton Way. This is not Crompton Way. This is not the Crompton Way issue, is it?"
David Harris : "No, this is Glanbrook."
Mayor DiIanni : "Right."
David Harris : "Glanbrook."
Mayor DiIanni : "So, just for the sake of the agenda and making sure that we're on the same page, the delegation status by Mr. Harris is to discuss the planning issue in Glanbrook, not Crompton Way."
David Harris : "That's correct, Mr. Mayor, yes."
Mayor DiIanni : "All right. Go ahead."
David Harris : "The reason I'm appearing this morning is to show that the lack of emphasis on the contour lines here" (Mr. Harris pointing to picture on screen of the map that was handed out to Members of Council) "Building lot 62 and 63, you can see are very close to the marsh lands and the wetlands of Twenty Mile Creek. And, you can see that I have point 'D' here" (refers to another picture on screen, this time an actual photograph of the area in question, in conjunction with a point 'D' noted on the map previously referred to) located. On the photograph, I have approximated point 'D.' Of course, I don't have surveying instruments. But, it's pretty close to that location. This photograph was taken from point 'E'" (again in reference to the map handed out to Members of Council) "across the pond - 2 ponds actually - to point 'D.' And, the point I'm making is, as I go back to the other screen, here" (i.e. the screen showing the map handed out to Members of Council) "there's point 'D.' This is marsh lands, wetlands of Twenty Mile Creek and the properties 62 and 63 are very close to it. If they are to be infilled and brought up to a suitable level, closer to the height of embankment, it will spill over and encroach upon the marsh and wetlands of Twenty Mile Creek. I feel that this is a very serious matter and that this was not emphasized enough at the June 6 th committee meeting." (most likely actually referring to July 6 th meeting - there was no June 6 th meeting) "And, I wanted to make this very clear to everyone here, that this is what we're talking about. The sub-division, the proposed sub-divisions along this area here" (again refers to picture on screen - same as handed out) "you can see at the top and the area around here" (more reference to picture on screen - same as handed out) "is flooded in the springtime. That's why there'll be quite a bit of infilling. I don't know the height of land from the pond level up to the top of embankment. But, my estimate would be probably in the neighbourhood of 30 feet. So, my concern is, that the Councillors, before they make their decision, take this into account and give full consideration to this matter. Thank you, Mr. Mayor."
Mayor DiIanni : "Thank you, very much and sorry for the confusion the way we started this - appreciate your comments. Any questions of Mr. Harris? Councillor Braden."
Braden : (Councillor Braden momentarily forgot to turn on his microphone before speaking.) ". . . and I ask you to do this as honestly as you can. Would you be able to on that map, put that arrowhead that we got on the frontage - so, where the curve of the road is, if in fact it's on that slope or if it's above the horizon. Do you understand the question?"
David Harris : "Yes, let me just get back to the other one here" (refers to the map on screen - the one handed out to Councillors) "You can see that the height of land is - the top of embankment, I should say, runs along here. The frontage of these two lots is below that."
Braden : "Yes, that's the one. That's the one I want. I want to see that on the next picture."
David Harris : "On the next picture?"
Braden : "Yup."
David Harris : "It's - let's go back here." (going back on screen to the photograph) "It's very difficult to see this, because of the angle that the camera was at. I was on the opposite side of point 'E' on the map, looking at point 'D.' I cannot say, with any certainty, where it would be. But, definitely, it's below the top of embankment."
Braden : "So, I mean I'm asking you, and I don't know if you're a professional in this business, but - "
David Harris : "I'm not."
Braden : " - presumably the road has to be flat. So, even the road is getting built up. Are you suggesting the road's going to get built up? -"
David Harris : "I would - "
Braden : " - Or, is it going to get cut down?"
David Harris : "I would say yes." (It seems the "yes" refers to the first question, as Mr. Harris started to answer after that question, but Councillor Braden ended by putting in the second question - before Mr. Harris could finish his answer.)
Braden : "Okay."
David Harris : "Yes."
Braden : "Well, I can ask the staff that question. Thank you."
Mayor DiIanni : "Councillor Mitchell."
Mitchell : "Mr. Mayor, I know Mr. Harris. I spoke with him several times and he's done a lot of homework on this issue. And, I think it has a little bit more to do with the Niagara Conservation Authority that it does us. Now, they have formed a new committee - 'Twenty Mile Creek' looking at Twenty Mile Creek - and Council's appointed me to that committee. We haven't got to a lot of these issues yet, but I did serve on the Niagara Conservation Authority for 5 years. And, it's my understanding that development in those planning shed areas - if there needs to be fill put in to a certain spot, to accommodate something, there has to be fill taken back out somewhere else in that same water shed to compensate. I haven't seen all that documentation yet. I imagine our staff has. I think it needs to be shared with Mr. Harris and it is an agenda item for Council on our Planning Committee. So, just through you, maybe if our staff could answer that concern and explain to Mr. Harris how that works or do a little homework before we get to Council on that Planning report because it is a very, very important issue to that area. And, I want to understand it. I think Council's here to understand it. More importantly, Mr. Harris and the local neighbours because it's a concern that they brought forward. So, could I ask you to have staff maybe try to clarify some of this before we get to the Council meeting, please?"
Mayor DiIanni : "I see Peter Delulio . . ." (didn't hear what Mayor said) "Peter, probably, now. Can you answer now, or do you want to wait 'til the Report?" (Peter motions he can answer now.) "You can answer now. Go ahead."
Peter Delulio - Planning & Development : "I just wanted to . . ." (could not make out what Peter said) "in regards to the flood plain issue here - the top of the bank; that we saw on the screen. The map that's before us here is, I think, an old general flood plain mapping that was prepared by the Conservation Authority a while back. But, back in November, December of last year, the applicants agent and the Conservation Authority met on staff, on site, sorry, to stake the top of bank. So, what is reflected in the draft plan is the top of bank, is at the back of those properties - lots 59 through 63. The rear of those properties, is the actual top of bank that was staked on site with the Conservation Authority. Now, whether the grading is still dropping off from the road down to the back of those properties, I don't know, but the control top of bank is what you see at the rear of those property lines staked on site. And, the flood plain or top of bank is below the rear of those properties."
David Harris : "I would question why we were given incorrect information on July the 6 th , Peter."
Mayor DiIanni : "Well, you know what, if you want to answer that, Peter, you may, but I don't want to entertain a debate now on these issues. I think you've made your point. Peter has heard and responded and Council is hearing this . . . " (had to turn over tape, sorry) "Okay, yes, I think we can have this discussion, we can ask staff at the time when we deal with the report. Sir, you've made your point. Is there anything else, you'd like to add?
David Harris : "One final point. This is the map that was presented to us on July the 6 th and the top of bank did not, it was never indicated at that meeting the top of bank was the rear of the these properties. And, as you see, on this map, that's what we were presented on July the 6 th "
Mayor DiIanni : "Fair enough, we understand that. Councillors, if you hold your comments, we're going to deal with this report at the appropriate time. Thank you, sir."
David Harris : "Okay, You're welcome."
Continue to part 2 starting at Item 6 - Staff Presentations
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