January 14, 2005 Report - Budgets - Departmental Overviews
Day scheduled 9:30 a.m. to 4 p.m. (with lunch hour)
Actual time: 9:45 a.m. - 11:53 a.m. , 1:15 p.m. - 3:38 p.m.

Attendance:

• Pearson: (In 9:35 a.m. and before 1:15 p.m. , no outs)
• Braden: (In 9:32 a.m. and before 1:15 p.m. out 1X, missed 6min)
• DiIanni: (In 9:30 a.m. and 1:32 p.m. , missed 19min)
• Collins: (In 10:06 a.m. and before 1:15 , out 2X, missed 23min)
• Jackson : (In 9:32 a.m. and 1:20 p.m. out 3X, missed 27 min)
• Whitehead: (In 9:48 a.m. , before 1:15 , out 3X, missed 31min)
• McHattie: (In 9:40 a.m. and before 1:15 p.m. out 2X, missed 46min)
• Ferguson : (In 9:40 a.m. and before 1:15 , out 6X, missed 59min)
• Samson: (In 9:32 a.m. and 2:10 p.m. out 2X, missed 1hr)
• Bratina: (In 10:44 a.m. and before 1:15 , out 2X, missed 1hr.10min)
• Merulla: (By 9:45 a.m. and before 1:15 , out 9X, missed 1hr.24min)
• Bruckler: (In 9:40 a.m. and before 1:15 , out 2X, missed 1hr.38min)
• Mitchell: (In 9:40 a.m. and before 1:15 p.m. out 2X, missed 1 hr. 39min)
• Morelli: (In 9:40 a.m. and 1:42 p.m. out 4X, missed 2 hrs)
• McCarthy: (In 9:32 a.m. and1:55 p.m. out 5X, missed 2 hrs.35min)
• Kelly: (In 10:17 a.m. and no attendance p.m., out 2X, missed 3 hrs.59min)

Public Works Departmental Presentation cont'd from Jan 13/05

Winter Control Program:
http://www.city.hamilton.on.ca/clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
committee-of-the-whole/2005/Budgets/Jan13/PW05016.pdf

From the report: "(Since 2001 there has been a) significant increase in service levels for much of the new City . However, .harmonization had a significant cost that was not incorporated at the time. The City's winter control program budget has been consistently overspent each year since amalgamation. . The 2005 budget as submitted includes an $18.0 million winter control budget, a $1,500,000 increase over 2004. While this is less than the projected actuals for 2004 ($22,000,000), staff are recommending that the winter control reserve offset the potential shortfall while the base budget increase is phased in over the next two to three years. In addition, that a reserve fund financing strategy be developed to establish an appropriate reserve balance to provide stable program funding for the future.(and to) support operational responses due to unpredictable weather patterns and storms which lie outside the scope of the anticipated normal winter activity of southern Ontario. . The effectiveness and efficiency of the winter control program will continue to improve through current staff initiatives.."

Discussion:

Jackson : "I just want to make a statement.I know the City Manager would say we need to just move on, but.." He and others have spoken to the general manager of operations (Wray Oakes) and "the key statement was that he would maintain the same service levels with $3M less, and I think that's been proven that can't be done and that's what's driving some of us crazy".

Braden's questioning ascertains that the City has to spend $21M "on average" for winter control. Currently there is $1.7M in a reserve fund, and the staff are proposing to add $2M to this in '05, to be found at the end of the year "in surpluses" ( Rinaldo ). A further discussion ensues to clarify the numbers as Merulla, Bruckler and the Mayor all seek clarification on these. (Unfortunately the tape connection malfunctioned throughout the rest of this discussion, and some additional comments of Ferguson (salt reductions) and Mitchell (things are improving). There should be further discussion on the winter control budget forthcoming when Council gets to the actual budget discussions in February - today's session was the departmental overview for information gathering.)

McHattie: ".Bryan (Shynal, Manager of Operations and Maintenance), on the 1 st page of your report it talks about 'under funding within this program has significantly impacted the effectiveness and efficiency of program delivery elsewhere in the division and the department' . Effectiveness and efficiency are things that I'm very interested in. I'm just wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that. What is meant by that? I guess by funding this at the level that you want it funded at - the winter control program - we're gaining in efficiency and effectiveness within the department, and there could be a dollar value associated with that. So what sort of positive dollars are we looking at by taking the steps you're suggesting?" Shynal: "The impacts really are at a management level as opposed to a field productivity level, and it relates to - and I'll use '04 as an example - coming out of winter into spring we were projecting an end-of-year negative variance on winter control based on the average November and December at the end of the year. That basically put us in a mitigation mode and that affected the delivery of other programs throughout the rest of the year until some mitigation plan was actually approved. So, therein that affects summer delivery of programs across the division. It took a fair amount of time from staff, from a management perspective, in terms of generating mitigation options that could be reported on - I think that was reported on in the fall - and basically that took us away from other productive activities that perhaps delayed the work program, or completion of the work program or whatever. So, were we able to gain a positive or a balanced budget situation coming out of last year's winter all of that time would not have been taken up in mitigation action. And, believe me, it's a fair amount of work to balance those options and to bring them forward. So, that's primarily the savings and I think it would basically pan out in terms of work plan completion by the management groups, and to some extent it would make field operations more efficient as well in terms of being able to fully plan and fully implement what was planned from a budget point of view. The numbers, they're hard to give you, but it's a considerable amount of time from the administration side". McHattie: "Well, that sounds really great. Mr. Mayor, at the beginning of the week when we did our introduction to the budget I talked about efficiencies and trying to add those up, because they're every bit as valuable as straight cuts to programs and that kind of stuff - in fact maybe more so because they're ongoing efficiencies which you gain all the time. So in every case I'd really like to see those itemized and dollar identified there. And it's not just for our benefit. Taxpayers are looking at what we're doing and they say 'all we see is cuts or additional costs to things'. They don't see the efficiencies that we've really worked hard at. And, by spending the extra money, in some cases, we're actually gaining in efficiency. So, that's something that's defensible - or potentially defensible. I would hope to be defensible. I think we heard similar comments made yesterday with the street tree-trimming program too. There were efficiencies discussed in there, if you're not running all over the city, that sort of thing. So, that's the kind of thing we need to see. We need to see those efficiencies identified in dollar figures because the costs are identified in dollar figures, so that's a negative, you know, in terms of costing us more money. So, if there are positives we need to see those as well. . At some point in time it would nice to get into full cost accounting where we are actually looking at the environmental costs that we heard about yesterday too. You know, trying to itemize those - in environmental economics there are methods of itemizing those things now - some of the benefits of trees for example, and that sort of thing. And those are real numbers, not things that we're used to dealing with, but they do have real economic benefits. If a tree falls down, certain things happen and there's an economic cost to those things. So there's different ways of measuring that. But clearly if there are departmental efficiencies that's exactly what we want to see, and by identifying numbers with those, hopefully we stimulate folks throughout the city to identify similar efficiencies, which would make the case to expand budgets or add FTE's (full time employees) or whatever it might be by saving those efficiencies, or whatever. So I'd really appreciate that.

The second point I have Mr. Mayor, is on the issue of inventory growth. Bottom of page 3 it talks about ' the City's roadway system has grown by 101 lane kilometres through development over the last four years' , so that's through growth that that's occurred. And I just had a short discussion with Councillor Mitchell about development charges. And I'd like to - maybe I'll just ask the question just to - we think it's not been included in DC's, but we have an opportunity to reopen discussions (on DC's) I think perhaps sometime this fall or whatever, about GO train service (being added to DC's) and that sort of thing. So, I guess the question I would have Mr. Mayor is - this is clearly a growth related expense, winter control going up due to 101 new lane kilometers, through new growth - is that something we're able to address through DC's now through the process we've just finished (to increase DC's) or can we pick it up?" Rinaldo: ".Unfortunately.most of the cost that we're talking about here is the operating costs of winter control. And operating costs cannot be recovered from development charges. The expansions of the roadways, and so on and so forth, to meet those requirements, were in fact included in development charges. But you can't include - recover DC's for operating costs". Mc Hattie: "Well, I guess I'd take the opportunity to make the point then, that this is yet another cost of growth that we're not gaining back from development charges - from new development. As we're speaking at this very moment we're charging taxpayers for growth. So, we'll just add that to the GRIDS (growth related integrated development strategy), when we get into that, on the way we grow in the future.

The last question I have.is on the overtime section - there's a table.on page 3 - significant overtime. (Measured in dollars spent, not hours: '02 -$754,190; '03-$1,182,790; '04-$730,660) . We talk about lost time - sick time and that sort of thing, and moral issues at the staff level. And I don't know whether - it's tough to get a specific response I would imagine - but what are the impacts on staff and moral and illness and these sorts of things - these high levels of overtime, in this particular case? Understanding that they're multiplied throughout the Public Works department, as well as other departments. And, I guess, what are we doing about it?" Graham: ".It's the nature of this particular kind of work - it's just part of the order of business that there's a lot of overtime that occurs that's unscheduled. It obviously has the kind of impact that I think you are suggesting on the staff that have to work extraordinarily long hours under fairly difficult circumstances.the extra mile and then some.. There's no question the level work that we're expecting the people in the organization to do is having significant negative impact on moral, and is having negative health consequences for employees. And that is something that we've been very concerned about and we're doing a lot of work to attempt to alleviate. So, for example, we've beefed up our wellness programs in human resources, and we're hoping to start to see the benefit of some of that. But, a lot of it does relate to the efficiency and effectiveness that you talked about earlier, and there are a number of things that we're doing on that score. We've established an efficiency and effectiveness strategy team to look for opportunities to eliminate processes that maybe have outlived their usefulness so that we can recover that staff time and apply it to things that we need to get done these days. We have developed and implemented a cost savings ideas program as part of this year's budget to get employees at all levels of the organization to tell us what's going on out there, that is maybe no longer necessary or it needs to be done differently or it could be done more efficiently. We've talked to the unions - we've done several rounds of consultations with the unions to get ideas from them about things they believe we ought to change. So, there are a number of activities going on corporately to attempt to this work overload and some of the burnout we're seeing, and some of the negative health consequences that employees are experiencing and are driving some of our costs around disability management, employee health benefits and that sort of thing". McHattie: "A quick follow up question - .have we had a report recently.that actually deals with a number of these health issues, relating to overtime? Obviously there's other factors.but overtime has got to be a clear driver when it comes to health issues.. It might be a good time to look at that sort of thing if we're thinking of adding additional overtime through this budget process - we might want to think twice because there's costs on the other end - there's always costs in everything we do". Graham: ".We do report annually on a number of workforce demographics and we'll be doing that again in the first quarter of this year. I'm hoping to have a more robust report this year though, that starts to create linkages between, for instance, the drug utilization through our employee health benefits, and that sort of thing, to see the kinds of illnesses that are having a negative impact so our wellness program can be targeted at those things. So, you will be seeing more information - certainly the Corporate Administration committee will be seeing more information on just exactly what you're asking for". McHattie: "Well Mr. Mayor, I think the decisions we make during the budget really impact that kind of thing. And it is difficult for us to relate to make that relationship as we're making those decisions unless we have that information. Maybe there's something that could be provided, maybe through your presentation Catherine when we get to the HR presentation around this table, that at least provides us with some guidance on how the decisions we make - perhaps just focusing in on overtime. - affects our employees. Clearly there's a relationship there, but it's hard to get at. All we see are the overtime numbers, and we don't see in as clear a fashion, the effect of that. It could be - who knows how many tens, hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost time having to do with overtime. I don't know if that's the case, but it could be the case.

The last thing I'll mention, just on that, is Catherine mentioned an efficiency and effectiveness committee, or a task force. We have actually gone to the employees to look at . their suggestion on employee cost savings having to do with this budget. .When are we going to see the results of those two initiatives during this budget process?" Graham: ".We're in the process of analyzing all of the cost saving ideas that have come to us. One of the things that we did commit to do with the unions though was to view their member suggestions with them , before we consider what's implementable. We're hopeful that the balance of the efficiencies that are achieved through the employee suggestions over the course of this year will realize savings 'in year', because we aren't optimistic given the volume of ideas that have been provided to us, and the necessity to do some careful analysis of those, that it informs what you're seeing now . But we hope that over the course of this year we're going to implement some of these changes and realize the savings, which would then inform the '06 budget. We definitely though, do plan to bring the information to Council as we're able to do that, in terms of some of the suggestions we're getting and how we're implementing them and what the impact of that is". McHattie: "Well again, Mr. Mayor, I need to see that information during the budget process - at least the suggestions at this level, if we haven't done the analysis to see whether those suggestions negatively affect other employees.that's an issue. But we're going through the time when we're actually looking at trying to save money.and if we can't look at the suggestions.now it puts us in a very difficult position. Again, we're thinking about the taxpayers - trying to demonstrate the fact that we're doing everything that we can to mitigate the costs that we have. . So, I would ask that staff come back with what we can come back with, or I'd be pleased to have a look at that stuff, .so that I understand whether it's simply nowhere near the point at which we can bring it to this table or there are certain things that we can demonstrate that we are achieving efficiencies .and we are achieving cost cuts.as well. This is the key time of the year, and if we can't do it now I'm going to be very disappointed". Graham: ".Just to clarify our process, we collected these in the fall of 2004, and what we've said to supervisors (the ideas went to them 1 st ). that if it's an implementable idea go ahead and implement the change to achieve the savings. There are some things though, that would have corporate application potentially, or there would be a suggestion in one department that would have application to a process in another. The CMT (corporate management team) is going to be reviewing those at a meeting sometime this month, so I think it is achievable to bring some information back to this group in the context of this year's budget process, about the kinds of things we're looking at, and what we anticipate in terms of savings. Again, there was a little bit of anxiety on the part of the unions and some of the people making the suggestions quite frankly about where these things were going to be discussed and so on. .I think we can work through that (logistical problems) and satisfy your concerns". McHattie: "I'd really appreciate that.that would be tremendous to see".

Whitehead asks what Hamilton 's snow removal standard is, and how that "ranks up with other municipalities". Staff: (Wray Oakes) ".We compare on an equal basis, on average." Whitehead asks for specific details on standards, for "options in terms of service levels and what the savings might be", and asks for a report on this. Oakes agrees to do this, saying that a report would also "identify the risks associated with this" (lowering standards). Snow removal services are provided by both private sector and public sector (about 30% of main arterials and the majority of residential side streets are cleared using private contractors though 'IMOS'), and Whitehead asks for a cost comparison. Oakes says the per km costs during the winter season are comparable, but that it would not be feasible to bring the whole operation in-house due to the seasonal nature of the work and the equipment needed etc. He says he covers this in the end of season report that will be coming to Council. . Whitehead says he's interested in 'opening this (the budget process) up a little bit more' by inviting unions to make presentations. He is told that the public delegations sessions are the union's opportunity to speak formally to Council. He also has suggestions to better utilize frontline workers and says he'll meet with staff (Catherine Graham) to pass these along.

Samson: ".Are we asking for any more money from the (tax) levy to keep the same service delivery that we have now? That's what I'm trying to get through my head". Rinaldo: "Yes, we've included an additional $1.5M in this years budget to keep the existing service delivery - to fund the existing service delivery that Council approved in previous years". Samson: "So, what percentage is that going to be? Is that one more percent?" Rinaldo: It's equivalent to about 2/10's of one percent - 2 or 3/10's of one percent". Samson: "So, that is necessary to keep the service level that we have now?" Rinaldo: "That's correct". Samson: "So, the service level going to be kept the same only if we have an additional, what, 2%?" Rinaldo: "With 2/10ths of one percent. And we're phasing in the shortfall over a two year period." Samson: "So, 2/10 th of one percent it's going to cost the people to keep the same delivery they've got now? . I guess the question relates to the fact - it's the perception of people in the ward I represent - that the snow clearance that we have is certainly not what we had before. I want to be able to answer that.that this modest increase is comparable to other municipalities.I want to be confident we're delivering a level of service that's comparable.yes?" Oakes: "The answer to that is yes."

Collins: "Just on that last point. Councillor Samson asked what the increase was. I thought I heard when I walked in - and my apologies for being late - that we were going from $16.8M to $18M. Correct?" DiIanni: "That would be $1.2 million not $1.5, is that right?" Collins: "Well, the report says 1.5 and verbally I heard 1.2". Oakes: ".I'll look to Bryan (Shynal) for clarity. $16.4 is the budget for '04 and we're going up to $18". Collins: "So that would make it the 1.5 .(but he thought he heard otherwise)". Staff: "I can probably assist in answering that question. What we started with was the '04 budget balance, which was about $16.8, and included in that we were able to incorporate a couple of credits, one of which was as a result of the AVL (automatic vehicle locator) savings for '05. The other of which was that we were able to incorporate school board revenues for the first time in '05 that weren't there in '04. So that brought our budget down just a little bit, to about 16.5 when you incorporated all the credits. Then we added the 1.5 which brought us up to $18.0". Collins: "So for the purposes of looking back at the '04 budget it was 16.8 but because of efficiencies in the year we're down to 16.5". Staff: "That's correct".

Collins: ".I'm trying to understand - yesterday we had some discussion around what the year end numbers were, and we were informed a couple of times that those numbers aren't available. And then in listening to the debate here this morning I'm trying to understand how we incorporate an '04 variance into a reserve contribution when, as was said yesterday a couple times, we're unsure as to what the '04 numbers look like. Can I get some understanding on that?" Rinaldo: "That basically.rather than fund the difference we recommended to - we're projecting at this time, as you may recall, that we're going to have a surplus and that's what I'm - we're - doing. And on the basis of those projections - but I don't - quite frankly until we do close the books I don't know if we have a surplus, which is what I said earlier, that we don't know that with certainty, but we should know hopefully - like I said, we'll provide you an update on that. But rather than tax for the additional $1.8M I'm recommending that let's uh, uh - at this time we're projecting a surplus for the tax supported budget so let's utilize that, if in fact it materializes we should be ok, and if not I'll have to come back with an alternative source of funding on a one time until we reach full funding in 2006".

Collins: "So, the number's you've presented here in terms of reserve contribution, it could change?" Rinaldo: "Yes, it can change. That's the only caution that we were trying to point out to Council".

Collins: ".In regards to the - I heard Wray (Oakes) earlier reference that the dollar amount for any given year could range from $18 and $22 million dollars. What was the submission given by the department for their '05 budget for snow removal? Was it $21M .or did the department suggest $18M? What was passed on?" Staff (Scott Stewart - General Manager, Public Works): ".Our initial submission was $21.7, and again that's based on just the last two years of actuals. So our concern is there, that you need to get to a 5 year rolling average to get some decent history. So that's where I was suggesting that that average might be a minimum - it might be a maximum. And so, the suggestion is, looking at the chart that's on the screen now, starting at the bottom with $21.7 as a requirement, go back to the base and do a modest increase in the base.'2005, and if the reserves can help us one time get to the 21.7, now you've got a third year in your five year cycle, and you keep moving across the increments in the base and you see as you get on to 2007, if that works out, then you've got your average, and you've got the winter control budget funded at the appropriate level. And then at that point forward - you heard Mr. Rinaldo mention that the reserves should have about $5M in it - you work on the reserve at that point. We've got to establish for the staff and the committee what is the average for the 5 year cycle".

DiIanni: "If Councillor Mitchell will take the chair and recognize me, thank you, I just have a couple of questions as well.. Just very briefly, in terms of the comparator with Toronto - $3700 per lane kilometer, versus $3800 (for Hamilton ) - who else did we compare ourselves to?" Staff: ".Appendix B.summarizes our survey. We surveyed York Region, Kingston , Mississauga and Toronto , and (in) assessing the responses, identified that Toronto was most closely comparable". DiIanni: "Just out of curiosity though, what were the numbers in Mississauga , York Region and Kingston ?" Staff: "Mr. Mayor, I don't have that with me.." DiIanni: "Were they higher or lower than us? . They were lower than us." Oakes: ".Yes, Mr. Mayor, they were lower than Hamilton 's. But on the other hand we submitted the survey and not everyone submitted back costs in all categories which would allow us to compare, so the ones that did submit back all of the information that we asked for, Toronto's was slightly higher than Hamilton's, but the rest of the people that submitted costs were lower ". DiIanni: "It would be interesting to see why they were lower and do some analysis, maybe some best practices analysis of that as well. I'd appreciate getting that information at some point. I think it would be a good exercise, I think, if we're looking at some efficiencies we may have some things that we can borrow from them as well.

My other question has to do with the inventory growth that was referenced by one of the other previous speakers, and yes indeed as we do add more inventory we're adding more roads and therefore more costs, and the question was related to those costs. Maybe to you Mr. Rinaldo, we must have some revenues as well, to offset those costs. What are they?" Rinaldo: "If you look at - you're looking at the additional 101 kilometers over a 4 year period? During that 4-year period we've generated about an additional $30M in annual revenues from this new growth, in operating revenues. In addition - I should have clarified - the equipment for any new roads, for any additional lane kilometers - these are eligible to be recovered from the development charges, because they are capital expenditures. So, it's important that as we go through GRIDS.that we not only look at the additional cost, we also have to balance that off against the additional revenues, and is there - do they equal or do they ah - but generally speaking the assessment growth, quite frankly, that we've experienced over the past 4 years has helped us deal with the deficiencies in the infrastructure in the older parts of the city - that's what it's been used for in the past - in the past 4 years". DiIanni: "Thank you. And I think it's important that we see both sides of the equation if we're going to raise that".

The Mayor then asks staff to clarify just how the City communicates about winter control to the public, and "because we all get phone calls, how do councillors access some support for residents during snow emergencies?" Mitchell says that was a question he also had. Oakes: ".Our communications to service delivery is an area I feel that we still have to improve upon significantly. I recognized through the last storm for example that I was receiving a lot of second time calls to my office directly. What I found is there is a breakdown in our system and we are investigating it currently, but we will continue to improve the fact that - the calls generally are to be forwarded to the call centre, and what is generally happening, because of our staffing complement in our operations centres after hours, it isn't at full capacity, the calls are forwarded through to our centres and oftentimes the representatives that are there are currently on the phone, therefore that call goes to voice mail. And soon as it goes to voice mail it creates a frustration in the caller. Often they won't leave a message, and even if they do, the workload is such in the yards that the calls or the voicemails aren't checked oftenly enough, and before the end of the day those messages are left. And therefore no response goes back to the customer and this caller calls back the second time and at this point he's dealing with the frustration over and above the fact that they feel that their service isn't what they feel it should be. So, by the time I get the calls, and really they shouldn't be coming to me, because - I mean, I certainly can address that issue - but they're going to get a quicker response if we can deal with those issues right at our operations centres. So, I'm going to be discussing these issues corporately with Bryan (Shynal) as well, and the call centre and the operations centre, but we certainly that we can improve in that area. And I think if we at least allow people to discuss their issues with a live person on the other end of the phone that a lot of these issues can be resolved, and if not at least people can be somewhat satisfied immediately". DiIanni: "Just a comment. I think our staff did a great job this last time.and I've communicated that actually to Wray and asked them to convey that to staff. There's always going to be calls.and people upset. We need to understand that. I'm wondering though, because at the end of the day it is communications most often, if we can employ technology - I think it's a great idea what you're suggesting, we can pursue that - but I wonder if we can employ technology. One of the things that I hate doing is during the snow emergency, is calling the people that have to deal with (it) to tell them about a problem, because that distracts them from actually having to deal with the emergency to get the information. And often what we need as councillors is probably some information about where people are and what process is and is this issue on the radar screen. And I'm just wondering if technology could be used. I mean, we have the web, and I realize that there are some cost implications to doing this, but I - if you could give this some thought, in terms of actually putting live progress, where we are (etc), maybe we do that already, I don't know, but I think that would help us tremendously. Anyway.just a suggestion. Thank you".

Pearson suggests that additional information - "priority of where and when we're going to be snow clearing, how much snow has to come down before we do anything on certain streets" - be added to the snow clearing route maps that are published in the paper every winter and to information communicated via other media.

Mitchell: ".I'm chair of public works this term, and some of this information - both requests- needs to come back to that committee and needs to be discussed, and I see Bryan 's logged that.so we'll get this on a future agenda.and we'll get back to you. .I think we have to publicize to the people what our standard policies are.. A lot of the phone calls are they don't know what the service level is and should be. I know the massive amount of phone calls I've got is because inside new surveys.our policy is to sand and salt the intersections inside surveys to keep them safe, but what people see is a loaded truck with a plow on it driving through the survey with the plow up not doing any of the plowing and they're going 'how efficient is that?'. And I have that question as well. .

I have a question about salt and sand. All the municipalities around us seem to use a lot more sand than we do. And formerly, in the municipality that I used to represent, we used 3 parts sand and 1 part salt for savings. And that's not being done in Hamilton now.." Oakes: "It's a very difficult subject to discuss in this venue (Glanbrook's policy re secondary roads etc) .but in most urban centres I think you'll find that on most primary mains the material used is salt (and there are problems in the urban setting with using sand)." In our rural areas we are currently using a 3 to 1 mix. It was a standard that was approved.prior to my appointment. Quite frankly I don't have a lot of faith in that material.most municipalities in the rural communities are using a 10 to 1 mix. In time we'll probably have to come back with a report on the types of materials we're using and where we're using them". Mitchell: ".What I hear is that there are efficiencies coming, and they can't come soon enough". DiIanni: "Very good Wray, you continue to impress. I'm glad no one asked about the Stoney Creek old practices."

Braden: ".Up until this point in all of our discussions about the budget I think that we've basically been saying 'this is what it's going to be, and, by and large unless there's surprises, what we're budgeting should be successful'. But if I understand this correctly.it seems to me we're guessing we're going to spend 21 million bucks for snow removal this year. Have I got that right?" Staff: "I think my words were 'estimate'". (general laughter) Braden: "But here's where I think I would disagree with the presentation. So I'm being critical now. If that's what we think, then that's what we budget. The thing that's wrong - don't take wrong too strongly - is using the reserve. Joe said we want to build the reserves up. But you don't build reserves up by spending them. Right? That's what politicians do. Right? So, we've got $1.7M in the reserves and we're assuming we're going to find $2M worth of surplus, which in a way is commendable but that's not my understanding of how you do budgets. .I would suggest that the way to do this is to hit it head on, and to say 'look, we're budgeting 21.7, because that's what we think it is. Right? Now that's a little bit scary, but bear with me. Now we have 1.7 in the bank for reserves cause there's no saying this is going to be an average year. If this years a bit worse than normal, we've got the reserves and that's exactly the point we want reserves. This suggests two things- not only spending the reserves, but trying to find this money out of contingencies. I need to remind you that we had a bit of a problem last year. There was a huge shortfall. Because no one likes to go over budget, what it looked like was that we weren't going to do a whole lot of projects - particularly in my area, cause I'm a little sensitive about this - to look after the shortfall. .Don't want my area, or ward four (for example), to be the one to say that, if we have a problem with snow removal, one area's going to loose. Right? That's not the way to do budgeting. If you budget 21.7 then the budget's gone up $5M. And I think what the staff is saying, and staff's always too polite, right? Staff know that we want the job done but we don't want to pay for it. And you guys have got to say - forget that. But anyway, we've got to pay for the service that we want. So, what we've got to pay is 21. If that means our taxes are going up another 2% or 3% as a result of winter control, at least let's have that as part of the debate. Because if the real number is 21, and it is, then I want to talk about reducing winter control standards. Last year was 16 - we underestimated - we accept that responsibility. 21 is way too much. Now, global warming is not going to reduce this folks. .With energy this number is going to go up way faster than our ability to pay, I hope we all agree with that. This technology's nowhere going to take care of the energy costs. So that number's going way up. If we want to start getting behind now, that ain't the way to start. So I'm just suggesting that you change those numbers so that they fit with all the other numbers that we've heard in the past couple of weeks. So, the top number, the base should be 21.7. The reserve is 1.7 in the bank and we'll use it if we need to. I'd suggest next year, that with the cost of living, we begin building the reserve up to $2M. So next year we put in $300,000. At the end of next year we're going to have $2M in the bank - $3M, $4M, $5M - at the end of 5 years we're going to have 5 million bucks in the bank. And that folks, assumes that all the years are average. And that doesn't happen. So, I want to tell you that I object, from the point of view of historically how I think we've done budgets together that this is not the way to go. If I've lost anybody I'd sure like the chance to set him straight. Not that I'm right. It's just that this is not the way to present this, because we're going in the hole and we're pretending we're not". Rinaldo: ".I agree with Councillor Braden. In an ideal world we would love to budget $21.7M. However, just like many other issues we're trying to address we're trying to do it over time. And the ability to go from - to increase the budget by $5M in just one year is, given the tax impact, we are also realistic that that has a negative tax impact by adding it. So we're trying to phase it in, and fund it on a one-time basis. But in an ideal world.but we're trying to deal with the economic realities of our community.. We want to get to where Councillor Braden tells us we want to go, and we certainly intend on doing that over the next two or three years as opposed to doin' it all in one year". (Some dialogue was missed here, as the microphones were not used. Braden speaks, I think.) DiIanni: ".No, it is a budget that is dependent on other factors. But the point is this. Staff is making a recommendation. The budget is ours. If you make a motion at the appropriate time when we're actually making some decisions we'll consider it and then Council will have to decide what to do. (Some dialogue was again missed, as again the microphone was not used - it was Braden speaking again, I think.)

Bratina: ".To staff, can you just tell me, as the City grows with suburban areas and a significant piece of highway how the bottom figure stays the same 2005-2007? I'm going to assume that the expressway and other developments will increase the amount of kilometers of road? How do you take that into account?" Shynal: ".The intent here was simply to show a static frame of reference going forward. Certainly we would review our inventory changes from year to year, any cost drivers.and the number would be adjusted.. But in terms of the model staging it though, all we're trying to do is show the.implementation of our existing program cost estimate".

Samson: "Just a quick one in terms of feedback. I was asked by the local reporter after the last snowstorm about my reaction to complaints and so forth. I don't want to invite further complaints, but I said that I'd only received about 12, and the reporter said that my predecessor in the first storm of the amalgamated city received about 250. So, I think that somewhere in there, there's certainly been an improvement. Thank you".

Whitehead: ".Mine's actually a little differently focused. It's on the phone calls. And Wray, you're brilliant and frank, and I appreciate that in regards to what you stated in regards to the communication issue. I appreciate that. But the information I'm looking for now is how many calls when it comes to, say, snow removal - if it goes to the contact centre what happens with it there. Does it - are the problems resolved at the contact centre or does it flow back into your department?". Oakes: "That's part of the investigation that we're going to try to look at. It's too - I would only be speculating to say that I don't know how many calls a day are entered into the Hansen system (Hansen Infrastructure Management System) for investigation at the call centre versus those that are forwarded directly to our operation centres. And right there is part of the process that possibly we need to look at to improve. Because obviously, unless we - we can pull those numbers and we will be looking at them - but until we decide which is the most effective way to put that call through to the live person we won't know where we stand. But certainly, we have to look at that. I have, as I said, talked briefly to the call centre through some emails and things. They're suggesting that we start handling the calls there and directly entering them into Hansen and forwarding them out directly for investigation to the supervisors. But part of that problem is that we're not staffed not adequately in terms of supervision in order to be there and receive those investigations as they come in, or as they're on-line electronically. So unless we have an awareness of that and can respond to that on a regular basis, or at least every hour, those are going to sit electronically unnoticed as well. So there's a lot of little issues inside the process that we're going to be looking at as well to try to improve that". Whitehead: "I appreciate that, but I'm actually trying to tackle it from a different point of view. It's not about the operational, or functional reality of the snow removal as much as it's about how calls are dealt with, the volume of calls through the contact centre.and to public works, and what, again, what - I'm trying to understand how much, how many of these calls are alleviated by the contact centre and how many are actually going to your department? Because my experience is most people want an answer and the contact centre's not in the position to provide the type of answer that the caller's calling for, but that's when I end up getting a call. So, do we have any of that statistical information.?" Stewart: ".I think you'll get that this afternoon through Joe's presentation. The only thing I would add to that with the call centre. We would like them to answer more calls so it's a case of training.." Whitehead: "Can I interrupt for a moment, please? I will be asking the questions when we get to the Corporate Contact Centre presentation, no question. And I'll listen intently. But I think I have a role here, to ask individual department heads what in fact is happening in their departments and what their experiences are. I think that's useful information as we move towards discussion on the contact centre. So, I don't want to be rude, but I think the point is." DiIanni: "Work through the chair" Whitehead: "Pardon?" DiIanni: "Work through the chair, please". Whitehead: "Sorry Mr. Chair". DiIanni: "And your essential question is the number of calls that come in.?" Whitehead: "The number of calls that go directly to the public works, yes". DiIanni: "And I think I heard Wray say that he doesn't have that information at his fingertips. Am I wrong about that?" Oakes: ".That is correct. I don't have that information. But there is a process that we certainly can pull that from the Hansen and from the call centre as well as our centres and we can identify those calls. Whitehead: "Thank you." DiIanni: "Ok?"

Ferguson : "Mr. Mayor, I just want to make a statement.. Once a month, as you're aware, I have community committee meetings and I try to have staff speakers come.on different topics. I know the City Manager was there a couple of months ago, I wouldn't invite Joe - he'd bore them to death (laughs). But I've had other speakers. I've had Scott Stewart there. By and large it's good discussion. This last month I was stuck for a speaker - it was right after New Years - I called Wray at 11 o'clock in the morning and asked if he could speak that night and he said yes. I couldn't be there because I was doing a Cable 14 thing. But there were 20 people in the room and they all came away from that completely understanding the process. He did a heck of a job and I'd like to thank him in this forum for what he did that night. He just explained it to a 'T' . and there was 100% satisfaction. My own experience with snow removal is I never contacted Bryan , I never contacted Wray - I have a good relationship with the superintendent and I have the cell phone numbers of all the foremen. I can get issues resolved on a complaint basis within half an hour at most. So, I have really good relationships with the staff. It just takes co-operation and it's working well for me. This time I had 12 complaints and they were all resolved within maximum 6 hours, and I had 6 compliments".

McHattie: "Mr. Mayor, just a point of process. We're still early in the budget process and clearly the frustration level is already rising around the council chamber to some extent. And I don't mean to mention any particular councillors and I won't because I think it's happened a couple of times, but somehow we need to achieve a situation where we don't interrupt staff as they're giving a presentation - as their responding to our question. Our question is asked in a very important way - we want that information. As councillors we're representing taxpayers. But staff are trying to respond to the questions and to have them interrupted - these are staff who are professional engineers etc. I think we need to maintain the respect and that's going to be more and more difficult as we go through the process. Frustrations and this kind of thing happens, but I think that if we can just make that point at this very early point in the budget process. I think it's important to make that point". DiIanni: "I think that's an excellent point. Can I just add this other point? We need to ask all the questions that we need at our disposal in order to arrive at good decisions around the budget. A lot of the questions can be asked 'off-line' as well - can be asked in advance - especially questions that are essentially information types of questions, where staff might have an opportunity to gather it and give it to us when we come here. And that I think will streamline things. And by the same token we need to have some latitude and we know that this is a live process, where people are going to bring to the table the issues that they feel are important to be brought to the table in order to inform themselves and the rest of the council. So, I do want to give a little bit of latitude, but the point is really well taken. Nobody was named, so no one has a point of privilege.." Whitehead: "Just on that, and I appreciate the demeanor that it's meant in, but we also have to appreciate that when councillors have questions (missed this).understand how it is that other staff people can come into that discussion. Because I was just specifically asking Wray a point on volumes and then I have another staff person interjecting. So that needs to be controlled too. .If somebody else can provide clarity, that's fine. But I just need to understand that". DiIanni: "Let's not get into a huge debate there. Sometimes we ask the question of one, when somebody else has the answer as well. But if everybody can work through the chair maybe before jumping in that would really help.." Whitehead: "Fair enough". DiIanni: "And I'll try to be a bit more vigilant as well, as far as that interplay".

Mitchell: "I think we need to find some clarification. I'm very 'admirous' of Councillor Ferguson and I don't think there's anybody here who works harder as a councillor than he does. But it's, I guess, the policy - if the policy's going to be by complaint, that the people phone the councillor and the councillor phone the road superintendent and it gets dealt with ASAP real quickly and that's our policy , I don't mind doing that. I try not to do that because I like it to go direct. But if that's what we have to do as councillors just tell me because that's the way I'll set up my office in the future and if I can get every complaint dealt with that quickly I'd absolutely love it, Mr. Mayor. My district doesn't quite work like that in district 5. And I also have two districts to deal with and I uh. (Laughs and claps) Oh, good one Ferg! I admire you bud, but I wish it worked that easy for me. DiIanni: "Well, that's what I was trying to hint at in communications and councillors' role and I think if we could standardize that it would be really helpful. Oh gosh. Well, you were named, so Councillor Ferguson and then Councillor McCarthy". Ferguson : "What I left out of the equation was the first question I ask the people is have you called the contact centre? 'Yes, I have'. Ok. If you have, and you haven't been responded to then I - if they haven't I say call the contact centre". DiIanni: "Maybe the councillor can give us a little workshop on .." (Laughter)

McCarthy: ".I didn't want to let this go by without saying I appreciate staff's input, and really I think there's an expectation that if a department head can step in and evaluate a situation I wouldn't want to stymie that. We often ask 'who can answer that', so I wouldn't want to stymie that, and it's appreciated. I wouldn't want the staff to walk away from this table thinking that we're putting them in a straightjacket - that they can't answer questions. That's all I wanted to say". DiIanni: "Thank you. And if they work through the chair, that would be helpful. Ok, I think, I don't see anybody else (wanting to speak). I think we're done - we've done it, and we're going to move on. .We're going to break at noon , so we have a half hour."

Motion to receive the winter control report (Braden/Bruckler) CARRIED.

Capital Planning and Implementation Division Presented by Gerry Davis.
http://www.hamilton.ca/Finance/2004-budget/pdf/
presentations/capital-planning.pdf

Division Mandate: Provide support to the Public Works Department and other City Departments re: Design & Construction Services for Capital Projects, Open Space Development, Parks Planning, Integrated Asset Management, Development of Strategic & Environmental Plans.

Discussion:

Bruckler: "Gerry.going through the more detailed back up sheets I understand that the Battlefield Creek Bridge is also up for reconstruction in 2005, but I didn't see it on the list here". Davis: "Through the Master Plan we had that approved in 2004, and that will be going out for tender in 2005".

Bratina: "Gerry, in September and October when I was talking to the residents of streets south of St. Joseph's Hospital, they had concerns over the construction project - there were materials that had come down into backyards - and there were some issues around the Claremont bridge reconstruction. Did that project go on budget? And I understand that timing might have been a problem. Could you just give me a quick rehash of that?" ( Davis refers the question) Staff: ( Jerry Parisotto: Manager, Construction): ".Yes, the project went approximately a month longer than what it was scheduled to. Cost wise we were still on budget". Bratina reiterates the question about materials falling onto the homes beneath. "Someone said that they went up and someone said - the construction foreman said 'we didn't know there were any houses down there' or something like that. So, I'm just concerned about the process. I know that sounds a little far fetched. Was your department satisfied that all the work was done properly and well?" Parisotto: "Yes, it was. The first thing before they started the project they actually erected basically a framework under the bridge to catch any debris that might have gone down. From our point we've never heard anything from anybody that that wasn't the case - that there was material going down the hill. If it was we could certainly investigate it and go talk to them anyway". Bratina: "Thanks very much. That was an anecdotal thing, and often those things are overstated. But all in all it was a successful project? (staff nods) Thanks very much."

Mitchell: ".Mine's not really a question. As time goes on with the development in Mount Hope , .Binbrook, and .Winona I've had the pleasure of working with Gerry (Jerry?) and his staff, and probably will have so more in the future. And the positive thing that's happening here for all of us, I think, is the workforce collaboration of when the capital works get done it is coordinated with our other departments in the city. Sometimes that's frustrating, because it can put a project off for a year, but it's better to put a project off for a year and get the centre turn lanes in and get the other concerns - water and sewer - addressed under that road, and so on, than it is to go back and have a new works done and two years later rip it up again. And I'm seeing, and I think the whole city's seeing, a definite improvement in that. It's very much a positive and as long as we know that, I, as a councillor, don't have a problem putting projects off for a year if it's going to be done completely in it's entirety with certain corrections made. And I just want to complement our staff on that. With regard to Winona and turning lanes and so forth, I'd reported that it was going to be done in '04, but we put it off till '05 because once you pull together all that collaboration it was beneficial to do that. .And I complement the staff on that.." DiIanni: "Nice to hear".

Jackson spoke at this time, also to commend staff, but the tape malfunctioned, so no transcript is available.

Collins asks about vacancies in the department, and how long it takes to fill vacancies, on average. Davis tells him that currently there are 5 vacancies, and that it takes about 1.5-2 months internally, and 2-3.5 months externally, to fill a vacancy. Collins asks if there are some positions that could be filled internally rather than contracting out or hiring consultants, and asks specifically about landscape architectural work. Gerry: ".There is sustained work load (in that area) that would warrant bringing FTE's (full time employees) in. ." Collins says he's looking forward to seeing an analysis on this, adding that "it's probably unlikely that we'll be able to utilize that for the '05 budget, but if it helps us for '06, that would be great". Acknowledging that the workload in capital works has increased in the past few years as the City catches up on infrastructure renewal, he wonders how the department "benchmarks" each manager's project workload, wondering if it's "pretty hard to gauge, and you just try to manage and make sure everyone's workload is what they can keep up with?". Davis says that's basically how it's done. He also says that it's the cost of the capital project (as a percentage of the capital budget - internally 4.5-6%, externally 6-12%), rather than the number of projects per manager, that is the tool they use to allocate the work. Collins: "So, you're saving us - well we're still paying for it - but your departmental costs are offset through the capital budget, and you're saying it's between 4.5% and 6%, depending on the project.. Is there an area for that to increase.? That's what I'm trying to get at. I mean every time that number goes up, in regards to capital, you're offsetting the levy, in terms of saving the corporation dollars we're not paying contractual wages externally, we're actually paying internal and that's assisting us with the levy. And I think - .to the corporate management team that are here today - those are the types of initiatives that we can undertake, and I think we undertook in the past to assist the City and former Region, in trying to save labour dollars. If we can do the work internally I think we should look to do that. And I think Gerry's division is a case in point where that occurs, and in fact is saving. 4.5-6% in terms of numbers may not look like a lot, but when you start looking at the dollar amounts in terms of the projects we deal with we're into the hundreds of thousands, if not maybe millions of dollars depending on the calendar year". Davis : "The other side of that is.bridges is the best example. Internally with a structural engineer and a technologist we could get out maybe two bridges a year. But when we go out to a consultant we get a team of 5, and then we get the design back in 6 weeks to 2 months. The other thing is staff turnover, absenteeism, illness etc. If a contractor.says 'I can't do it', we go over to (another firm), and we get it done that way. . That's the balance". Collins: "Right. And I'm looking at Toronto 's model. .One of the exercises that they're going through is looking at where they're spending money on external resources. So if it's a one off, we wouldn't hire someone for one specific project and hope that we find work for them later. But in areas where they recognize they don't have the internal expertise, and they understand that they're going to need it over a number of years . they're going through an exercise now looking at how they offset their internal costs, or utilize some of their capital dollars to assist with the levy and I would hope that we would do the same. ." DiIanni: "And I hope that we get the full analysis of the implications of doing that, because I'm not totally convinced that adding operational dollars is a long time saving. So I'm hoping we'll get the full business case showing the pro's and con's, but it's worth going through I think".

Merulla asks for a clarification of the difference between contractual work and consulting. Staff gives examples of DARTS for contractual and "professional services for design work on bridges" for consulting. He says he notices that there have been some changes in the budget - consulting line going down and contractual going up. "Not to be cynical.but has any of that consulting been shifted over to the contractual line?" Stewart tells him "No shift just to hide it", and gives the details.

Mitchell asks that in future staff reports show a line for "previous year actuals.so you could look at a trend.and I know that '04 is not done yet, but we could have an '03 line". He's also concerned about projects that are not done yet, saying, "we have a lot of capital projects that have money sitting in reserves.and I'm just wondering do we have a.policy?" He wants to know how long the money sits there, and if the older ones "come first to the top of the priority list for a decision"? Davis says there's no policy, but there is a capital prioritization committee that uses a 'after 3 year bring back to Council for justification' rule. Mitchell is alluding to projects in Binbrook where there are delays in moving forward due to sorting out the "legalities of who owns what", and he wants to know if there are legal staff dedicated to this department. Davis says that there are legal staff dedicated to the Public Works department.

Bruckler wants to know if the majority of cost allocation is for fleet and facility. Staff says no, it's primarily departmental 'charge backs' (finance, risk management, insurance). He says fleet and fuel is minimal, "maybe $100,000 of that component".

Council breaks for lunch. DiIanni indicates that Public Health and Community Services is next.

Public Health and Community Services

Agenda:
http://www.city.hamilton.on.ca/clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
committee-of-the-whole/2005/Budgets/Jan14/Agenda.pdf

Public Health funding enhancements:
http://www.city.hamilton.on.ca/clerk/agendas-minutes-reports/
committee-of-the-whole/2005/Budgets/Jan14/SPH05007%
20PH%20Funding%20Formula%20Enhancements.pdf

Transcription of discussion is pending.