Hamilton LACAC – Municipal Heritage Committee
July 22/04 Report
12: 00 p.m.


PRESENT: D.Dent (CHAIR) A.Charlton (VICE CHAIR)
COUNCILLORS: M.Pearson AND B.McHATTIE
MEMBERS: W. Buchko, A.Denham, S.Wray, R.McKee, D.Reid, B.Murray, A.French
REGRETS: B.Hoekstra
ABSENT: J.Feswick

GUESTS: M.Flynn-Guglietti employed by McMillan Binch. J.Benditti - Consulting Engineer representing the Sniderman family
M.Jelly- presenting a video of the Lister Block, ran in mayoralty race, 2003.

ALSO PRESENT:

PLANNING and DEVELOPMENT: B.Janssen, D.Cuming, S.Barber, J.Muller, A.Brown
BUILDING : T.Redmond
LEGAL: D.Fisher
CITY CLERKS: A.Rawlings

Call to Order: Chair welcomes members, guests , and public, and remarks that much of the meeting will be taken up with the recent collapse of the roof of the Tivoli Theatre.

1.0: DECLARATIONS of INTEREST: A. Denham declared a conflict of interest in the Bank of Montreal 52 James St.S.-employer has a contract involving building.

2.0: CHANGES to the AGENDA: four additional reports handed out- 4.2.3, 5.1, 6.3 and 9.1 added as attachments.

2.1: 4.2.3 reads in short-General resolutions of the joint ACO/CHO which met on May 14/15th of May, 2004.
1. Strong Law
2.Economic Incentives
3.Supportive Gov't. Policy
4.Building a Positive Attitude

2.2: 5.1 reads in short- Request for consent to demolish the former carriage factory portion of the Tivoli Theatre (108-112 James st.N.) pursuant to Part 1V of the Ontario Heritage Act (Ward 2) .

2.3: 6.3 reads in short-Notice of Intention to Designate the auditorium portion of the Tivoli Theatre (111-113 Hughson St.N.) pursuant to Part 1V of the Ontario Heritage Act.

2.4: 9.1 is headed CARNEGIE LIBRARY, 10 King St.W., Dundas , On.
Reasons for Designation/Historical significance. Handout goes into detail.
Mr.Matt Jelly did arrive just in time to show his video of the Lister Block, and it was suggested by Councillor McHattie that Mr. Jelly be invited to the next meeting to further discuss this topic.

Pearson/Buchko
That the Agenda, as amended, be approved, and that 5.1 and 6.3 the two added reports respecting the Tivoli complex be considered first.

3.0 Mr.Cuming (Planning and Development) gave a brief photographic
overview of the Tivoli.The material was obtained from the OAC and featured mostly the time frame from 1960-1990. Also Sam the Record Man's recently closed store was included ( 114 James St. N. ) and some of the recent demolition dated July 21st, 2004 of the Theatre since its collapse.

3.1 Mr.Cuming then went onto state Application under the Ontario Heritage Act to demolish the property (108-112 James St.N.) had been reviewed by City Staff (referring to pg. 3 of 5.1 of the yellow handouts) which notes the following: the architecturally impressive facade /dominant corner tower/round arched windows etc., gabled dormers/tall mansard roofed convex-shaped tower with narrow, paired arched dormers surmounted by circular windows and a bracketed cornice.

3.1.2 Mr. Cuming went onto say the City Staff were in a severely compromised position advising the Committee not to preserve under the Ontario Heritage Act. But looking @ 6.3 and the reason to consent demolition of 108-112 James St.N.is the Building Code Act which states that once Designation has been served the affected property owner must apply to Council for any required approvals. Therefore, the code (quoting from 6.3) "effectively manages the municipality's cultural Heritage resources, particularly the permanent loss of Heritage properties. The Government Efficiencies Act, 2002 empowers municipal councils to consent or refuse applications for demolition under Section 34 of the Act , but with numerous rules as to how and why.

3.1.3 Some discussion concerning 108-112 James St.N. led by S.Wray of which the recorder didn't catch.

4.0 The Chair introduced Ms Mary Flynn-Guglietti of Mcmillan Binch and Mr. J.Benditti.Engineer:

4.1 The following is some of what Ms Guglietti stated: Mme. Chair I am the solicitor of property referred to in the report. Indicating from a board the area marked in orange showed 108-112 James St.N., known as the Tivoli Theatre. ... .Tried to clear the bldg. in Jan.2004 (showing a photo of that time period) Ms Guglietti, "compared to what you see today all historically significant points have been demolished, windows , cupola, gables etc., there is nothing significant in the other

That's why we are here today.Are there other ways to save it? Is there money? A public safety issue . Sam's technically has a wave in the roof, potentially it may collapse also. To allow delays is not safe. Unfortunate, but old buildings are very expensive to maintain.

4.2 I would ask this Committee...Mr. Bendetti is the engineer hired by Mr. Sniderman. "Succinctly said by Mary-Lynn. Only other comment," presently only the wood structure in the building has been advised by Property Standards to put in a steel structure to prevent collapse. Water or dampness next winter may see some plaster collapse. Owners agreed to put on a roof, but for what purpose. Mr. Bendetti then showed actual collapse point-rear of Tivoli building."

4.3 Committee member: "Please take yellow paper document, turn to back page, go to #2 and reading under the current bi-laws -statements made ,I have a problem with it. Special meeting, chronology given to the public. Before the city turned the property over. Turned back to the owner, but water issues not dealt with. But you being a representative of the owner-problem with delay-Leniency Act allows time to make a bid for a long standing historical building in Hamilton."

4.4 The Chair: "On the back of Document ,part B ---." A. Brown : "180 days time ---."(Ref. To time frame owner of building ,city and others have to make a decision on the outcome of the Tivoli )

The Chair: "What is going to happen to site when the building comes down?" Mr.Benditti, Engineer hired by the Sniderman family: "In best interests to take down."

A.Brown: "All due respect-no maintenance for years and years. I have no sympathy @ all."

Engineer at his point made a comment :"Not an option."

D.Reid: "---anytime from June 29h to July 5th a structural engineer brought in to see the condition of the building?"

The Chair : commented - unheard.

D. Reid: "'Team 1 was hired by the City of Hamilton ?"

City Engineer: "Retained by the Snidermans ---July 5th many meetings, no architectural or structural engineers obtained at these meetings. We do have structural training ,but not in regards to Heritage."

4.5 "You must ask if Committee would like public to speak."

4.6 City Engineer: "Some history still outstanding even though wall of 2nd. floor ,south-side- 3 layer -brick structure, some kind of lateral restraint to retain ---."

M.Pearson: "The Lobby- how much is still intact?"

The Chair : then referred to item #2 on the yellow sheets.

City Engineer: "Walls are intact. Was in yesterday, some water damage in S.E. corner of lobby, otherwise lobby is intact."

The Chair: "Is there a photo of the lobby ?"

There is a large gap here in the transcript.

7.3 Legal Council: "Have to turn 108--- 114 is coming down ,108 is staying up.Rip down common wall because this will have no affect on Heritage building. Permit will be given, but taking down common wall would be demolition of Heritage building."

B.McHattie: Permit would be denied. Review 6.3---."

D. Cuming (City Planning): "August 11th/04 -6.3 goes to Council, immediately it is served."

7.4 The Chair: "Three questions from members.

7.5 B.Murray: "--shared wall-what about other connections between these two buildings? Is this the only thing you are looking at?"

Legal Council; "Only concern would be that structural weakness maybe caused.We would have to b sure it was secured. Making steps to comply with Property Standards.---if they would defer- independent study 108-112 is viable. Does the City have an Opinion on this?'

D.Cuming: 'Applications to Council. the Act does not direct. Does not ---.Need an application to demolish that is what the Act says. Public Works Engineering on staff for advice.

D.Reid: Quick question-who wants to give--- ."--- make the final decision-the Chief official shall-not to issue a permission on law---."

The Chair: "Ensure public safety."

B.McHattie: "Designated-114 to 112.Put on record, please.---if we pass 6.3 because of design it's through the City not the owner."

D.Cuming: Letter of May 29th/1990 requesting from Sam Sniderman to designate."

7.6 A.Rawlings (City Clerk):

:Motion 5.1 be Tabled to next meeting."

Seconded:---?

The Chair: "The reasons why, that the recommendation can be brought back."

CARRIED.

7.7 : 6.3 : 6.1,6.2,6.3 to designate.

7.8 D.Cuming: "Legal Council-Part 1V frontage 111 Hughson St.N.and 113.

Reviewing file I referenced original designation request. Quite clearly stated municipal intent to interior to be designated(see yellow addition 6.3).Very clear intention. Staff---I have tried to go back to the original intent. Original wording" advise council".

7.9 Motion: ?

Seconded: ?

Discussion from Committee@ this time.

7.10: B.McHattie: "What happens to 111 Hughson St. and 113 if they don't make a decision between now and Aug.3/04 ?

D.Cuming: "If it's already designated there is a remedy. If matter is going to council---."

The Chair: "Members to speak."

S.Wray: Can't get my head clear about this. Sniderman's agreed to designation?"

D.Cuming: "They didn't---."

S.Wray: "What does Provincial Government have? No jurisdiction on this. It's a Municipal Government---."

The Chair: " "On LACAC @ the time, research to this Committee to---.Perhaps an error .Didn't need to make further designation on the other numbers of the whole complex."

Mr.Benditti (Mr. Sniderman's Engineer): "Reviewed only 108-112 for designation.---."

Speaker (not identified): "Point of law- Mr.Sniderman would have understood that the Lobby designated."

Mr Fisher? speaker: " Bear with me. What was discovered is a" for land ' designation bi-law.---Part 1V Bi-law not useful unless enforced. We have a technical inefficiency that staff-- either way you go. Assume staff would concur ,and you want this--on the title on the land.---.Can't change the bi-law to write a new bi-law---.Achieve your goal to have the demolition prevented. To put a new bi-law in place---."

Speaker(Committee): "Concerned. In a hiatus."

D.Fisher;"Wouldn't willie - nillie. Do it. Will be in---.We are not going to issue that permit."

B.Wray: "If --- chose not to wait the hiatus, and owner went and got a permit. Owners application, to bring his to an end---."

B.McHattie; "It's Tom's decision---."

D.Fisher: "Parties could get involved."

D.Reid: "To David's designation 111-113 Hughson St.N. without--- refuse to accept designation?"

D.Cuming: "No legal obligation to get permission from the owner.'

7.11 Mr.Benditti: "To designate, as I mentioned earlier, a concerted effort to look @ cost, doesn't make my client feel any better. One individual client is not fair or reasonable to expect him to pay all the expenses."

7.12 Mr. Grant Head (from , 190 Caroline St.S.);"Congratulations to the Sniderman's who have had well meaning discussions on this issue. Hiatus concern between application and when Council meet. Pleased Mr. Fisher will not issue demolition permit. Could save costs and a lot of money to be put into building. As soon as notice of new designation ---will not issue demolition permit during hiatus period because it is a protected property , and because it is a designated. property."

D.Fisher: "A question of designation or not. I can't issue a demolition permit unless a court says to do so. Want to resolve this issue."

Mr.G.Head: "Would this Committee be advised---."

The Chair : Announced that Councillor for Ward 1, Mr.B.McHattie had to leave.

A Motion made by B.McHattie before leaving to advise Council to designate the Tivoli Auditorium under Part 1V of the Ontario Heritage Act, and that lawyer for the Sniderman's (Mr Benditti) be asked to come to next meeting in early August.

Seconded by M.Pearson.

8.0 : Room 110 cleared of most guests, particularly those interested in the Tivoli Theatre, and its dilemma. Time 2:15 p.m.

The Chair ;"We have to work quickly---."

9.0 B.Murray: LACAC to request independent Heritage Structural Engineer to look at 108-112 and connecting 114 James St. N to see how viable these structures are , and make a recommendation to City Council."

D.Cuming: "Private consultation on structure of bldg.s directed to Mr.Fisher."

Mr.Fisher;"Could be couched in Council."

B.Murray "Staff be authorized to have Structural Engineer review independently and then present a report to City."

Moved by B.Murray

Seconded by D.Reid

Now referring to the Agenda's numbering:

6.2 -276 -278 King St. W. -Request to designate-two storey brick building.

D.Reid: "Doesn't meet the criteria ."

D.Cuming : "Have to do the research to---."

M.Pearson and W.Buchco requested that a cultural heritage assessment to be done on this property

6.1 466 Mohawk. Most farm houses not architect designed. Elements intact(now in a middle of a survey).This gentleman came to us two years ago. Has been sitting for two years waiting for us to get back to him.

D.Cuming; "Designation not always to only rich and famous. Can revisit criteria. Have designated rural properties(a track record)."

'D.Reid and B.Murray request that this be tabled for next meeting.

9.2 Historical Board- R.McKee; "No report as did not meet in summer.

9.1 Tabled for next meeting-Response to Bill 60.(Amending the Heritage Act).

7.5 Tabled.

The Chair: "Going backwards. Haven't got Chair elected for this group."

D.Reid: "I would like to elect Walter (Buchco)."

The Chair: "Congratulations."

8.2 Joint Plaquing: D.Reid: -

Tabled, due to time constraints, for next meeting.

7.1 D.Reid: "Provided outline-deferred. Committee to review and do questions."

B.Murray: "Visioning exercises. Is this premature when this exercise is---."

D.Reid: "I can resign ! "

The Chair: "Heritage will come up, visioning may not come up for three months."

Declarations of Interest: None noted.

Victoria Hall:

Power of sale. Cogeco cable issue. Change of ownership. Did approve a permit for restaurant.

B.Murray: Spoke of a barricade needing attention.

The Chair;"Are you asking staff to look into it?"

Book Houses:

A.Charlton: "Talked to Ministry of Culture and Rec. Paul Wilson did a story on this in the Spec.

R.McKee: "Article in the paper mentioned that young people going into the buildings."

A.Charlton: unheard by recorder.

D.Reid: " ---doesn't smell nice, but looks structurally sound."

Red Hill Valley : (not designated)

No report. Archeological digs ongoing.

Lister Block: (designated)

The Chair: "Lister Block within the last 48 hours, corner of King St. has been sprayed with Neon Spray Paint!"

D. Cuming: "Well aware of condition of building. Mr.Mancinelli hard to get hold of. Suggest you get Property Standards."

M.Pearson;"Will try to contact. Article in the Spectator, saw this,a couple of plans on the table. Hoping that something is happening this year.

R.McKee; "Lose boards have been tightened. Did we have a motion to---."

The Chair: "Did say not to board up the windows."

D.Cuming; "Totally different kind of structural interior /exterior. Going back to structural engineers. Technical issue-small windows."

Auchmar: (designated)

The Chair: "Report by M.Pearson."

M.Pearson: "Have no report about Auchmar." (Bill Farkas from real estate invited to next meeting).

D.Cuming: "One submission several months ago."

The Chair: unheard by recorder.

Hamilton City Hall : (not designated)

No report at this time.

Bank of Montreal : 52James St .S.(designated)

R.McKee: Elevators, big piece of terra-cotta---"

The Chair: "Really need a policy on artifacts, a pedastel, and ---endangered---a protocol on buildings being renovated---."

D.Cuming: "Where, what---stored there---."

The Chair: "Need a protocol. Numerous artefacts might be stored. A pity when broken up or destroyed."

R. McKee: "Took photographs."

Smart-Turner Bldg.: 191 Barton St ..(not designated)

Said by The Chair or ?: "Fire insurance. Adam to get information on building. Photo taken in 1920's in package."

D. Cuming: "Hamilton Health Sciences said they have no information on building."(They are the owners)

The Chair: "Have we received information---?"

D.Cuming ;"Comes down to Property Standards, and we don't deal with these---."

M.Pearson: "Recommend that A.R.(is this City's Clerk) gets a phone number and advertisement from the Hamilton Health Sciences(H.H.S.)

D.Cuming reminded members to start with proper research.

Carngie Library: (designated)

No report.

Table 4.1,4.2

Protocol

Moved by D.Reid

Seconded by B.Charlton to adjourn. Time 2:45p.m.

The Chair : Thanked everyone for their professionalism and their patience.