April 20/04 Report
Scheduled start time 9:30 am. Actual start time 9:38 am. Adjournment 11:20 am.
- urban braille and outdoor cafes
- adequate and suitable heat bylaw
- state of neighbourhood and secondary planning including privatization of planning
- Attendance: Kelly, Mitchell, Pearson, Merulla, McHattie, Ferguson, Horwath
- Absent: Terry Whitehead: It was announced that he was attending a funeral in Elliot Lake
- Also present: Braden, Bruckler (both briefly)
- Media: Eric McGuinness of the Spectator, Ken Mann of CHML
Agenda and staff reports available at
Changes to the agenda. Item 7.1 was pulled from the agenda. There was an added submission relative to item 4.2 which was circulated. There was also an added delegation request numbered as item 4.4 from Todd Schaefer regarding noise wall issues in Winona Estates. A lawyers' letter was circulated related to item 8.1. Private information also will be circulated to councillors regarding 8.3.
Minutes of the April 6 meeting were approved without change.
4. DELEGATION REQUESTS
4.1 Mr Bert Mondesir, Marshall, Macklin, Monaghan Ltd., respecting measures to reduce obtrusiveness of exterior lighting.
4.2 Mr Ken Sivakumaran and others respecting the Veteran`s Memorial Park, Dundas, and the location of the new Dundas West Elementary School
4.3 Mr Boris Williams respecting Veterans` Park, Dundas, and proposal to site new elementary school.
All delegation requests were approved. The Veteran's park issue will be addressed at the next meeting. And the staff were asked to provide a report on the Veteran's park issue. The public is also invited to speak at that time. Ray Mulholland, chair of the school board was in attendance. Delegations on this issue will be heard on May 4.
5. CONSENT ITEMS
5.1 Removal of the Holding Symbol from the Lands Located at 21 and 35 Stone Church Road, Owner - T.R.L. Investments Limited (c/o Richard Cooper) (PD04104) (Ward 12)
5.2 Removal of Holding Symbol for 723 Rymal Road West - 723 Rymal Inc. (PD04105) (Ward 8)
5.3 Heritage Permit Application (HP2004-003) under Part V of the Ontario Heritage Act to Permit Alterations to the Designated Property at 324 Dundas Street East, Waterdown (PD04106) (Ward 15).
5.4 Heritage Permit Application (HP2004-005) under Part IV of the Ontario Heritage Act to Permit Interior Alterations to the Designated Property at 52 James Street South (Former Bank of Montreal), in the City of Hamilton (PD04107) (Ward 2)
5.5 Removal of the Holding Symbol from the Lands Located at 7 Short Road, Owner - John J. Hejno (PD04108) (Ward 14)
5.6 Information Report: The City of Hamilton Committee of Adjustment (Urban) Denial of Minor Variance Applications SC/A-03:307 and SC/A-03:308 and Consent Applications SC/B-03:226 and SC/B-03:
227 by Wolfgang Fischer and Dino Mirra, 38 and 42 East Street, Former City of Stoney Creek - Supported by the Planning and Development Department (PD04112) (Ward 11)
5.7 Request for Removal of the Holding (H) Provision - Lands Located at 604 Highway No. 8 in the Former City of Stoney Creek (PD04114) (Ward 10)
5.8 Animal Control and Pound Keeping Services in the Former Municipalities of Flamborough and Glanbrook (PD04118) (Wards 11, 14 and 15)
5.9 Declaration of Surplus Property; Parts 1, 2 and 3, on Plan 62R-14276, Lands at the Rear of 924-944 South Service Road and 430 Glover Road, East of Glover Road, in the Former City of Stoney Creek (PD04091) (Ward 11) The recommendation is that the sale price be used for "the City's tax operating revenue requirement of $1 million in surplus property sales". This appears to be making permanent what happened last year - selling the furniture to heat the house.
5.10 Peace Memorial School, Option to Purchase (PD03135(b)) (PW04042) (Ward 6) Recommendation is to purchase school for $825,000 and turn it into parkland.
All consent items were also approved without discussion.
6. PUBLIC HEARINGS AND DELEGATIONS None
7.1 Sale of City Lands Adjacent to Aeropark to Orlick Industries Limited Parts 1, 3 and 7 on Survey Plan RC-H-541 (Former Township of Glanbrook) (PD04115 / ECO04004) (Ward 11) Recommendation is to sell 7 acres for $205,000 to Orlick. $30K per acre for industrial land sounds pretty cheap. (Pulled from the agenda)
7.2 Urban Design Guidelines for Outdoor Boulevard Cafés on Public Property (PD04113/PW04043) (Ward 2) - Referred from Hearings Sub-Committee on September 11, 2002. These have been prepared in order to not impact on the Urban Braille system. Presentation made by Ron Marini, director of downtown development and Dave Zimmer.
Horwath: Congratulates staff. "This whole initiative came about because we had an incident downtown with a person who is visually impaired, following the urban braille system and being injured by smashing into a patio that they didn't know was there. So this is really an issue about the integrity of our urban braille system, which is an award winning system . and one that we as a City have been recognized for nationally. Really what it is is about putting some security and some integrity and making sure that that system is going to be able to be used for what it was meant for which is to provide a safe passageway for people with visual impairments through our downtown. When you look at the sketches of what is possible, the sky is really the limit. The guidelines are there to say to people if you want to put a patio up, that's great, here are the different options that you can look at and here's how the city can help facilitate that happening because really it is about making our downtown a people place, a place for people to enjoy the streetscape and enjoy the other activities that go on in the downtown." Many of sketches reflect existing patios. The one with bump-out is one council worked on last summer on King Street. "I'm really pleased and really proud of the work that has done by our staff on this initiative". Prepared to move motion.
Merulla: Will second motion. "It's very progressive. I'm interested in finding out how we can expand the urban Braille in the city. I notice a significant amount of sidewalk construction, and I'm not sure if that's incorporated at all. What is our plan for long term for that?" Ron Marini: "The urban Braille system was developed by the Planning and Development Department. . Basically, Bill Janssen's people are the folks who are responsible for the urban braille system. Right now, it's my understanding that it's in the downtown, and I know that Public Works works with braille in certain areas, but I can't give you the scope or area where they're working." Suggests committee invite Bill Janssen to speak. "For instance in the Westdale Secondary Plan I'm sure that will be one of the principles within the secondary plan, that urban Braille within the built-up area of Westdale be incorporated into any public works." Kelly suggests this is direction to staff to provide an update to the committee. Merulla notes that "Parkdale also has the urban braille built into it". This was a pilot project that he says has worked quite well. "The commercial sector is improving, but obviously we need a lot more work, but with respect to the residential component we have a lot of seniors and people with disabilities. I think that was the work of former councillor Geraldine Copps and she needs to be commended. We've received a number of positive remarks regarding that particular project over and above the downtown core or a highly commercialized area. Personally I'd like to see it taken a step further and actually incorporate into all our construction, regardless of the commercial areas. It should be basically part of the Official Plan of the City. And I'm just wondering, within what time frame can we move toward actually implementing that?" Kelly suggests that be included in the staff presentation will be given at a future meeting. Merulla moves motion that he wants it included in the Official Plan. Coveyduck: "My suggestion would be to wait until you hear the presentation and see how it is being incorporated and where it is being incorporated and at that time it would be more appropriate to have that discussion than to do it right now." Kelly : "That would be my impression, just sequentially. Let's get a report and see exactly where we are and where staff are planning to go. And if there's some desire at that point that maybe we want to expand the program and gets some ramifications." Merulla : "I'll put it down as a notice of motion."
McHattie: Notes that guidelines don't cover previously approved outdoor patios, some of which interfere with the urban braille system. He asks that staff speak to the owners of these patios to attempt to get them to voluntarily adhere to these new guidelines "on a goodwill basis", even though they are grandfathered out of these design guidelines because they have previously been approved by Council. "I'm wondering if we had conversations with any of those operators, looking for opportunities, perhaps on a goodwill basis. They understand the intent of what we're trying to do. Are there any opportunities for them to alter the way that their patio is set up. If we did it today, we would set it up in a different way. There may not be enough room in some of these locations to even do that, that's fair enough, but I'm just wondering if we've had those conversations on a proactive basis." Marini agrees to do this but "The principle was that they were already approved by City Council and there was already an agreement registered saying that they had the right to reoccupy. However, last year, on the one particular incident that councilor Horwath is speaking of, what happened was. It happened two years ago, and then last year they moved the patio off the main pathway into the lay-by area and that worked very successfully. The latest indication from that particular area, which is Infusions, their indication is that they're still interested in keeping with last year's format, not the original. So we're hopeful they'll keep that one clear." Other two or three others out there. McHattie asks if staff can talk to these others on a goodwill basis. Marini: Yes. "Here's the problem. We want to keep the urban braille path free, but under the liquor licence rules of Ontario you can't carry alcohol across a public space. And so what happens is they have to build, as David said, a whole separate infrastructure, a serving station with water that has to be available to them out on the patio sidewalk, and that's the additional cost."
Pearson: Commends staff. "I was really thrilled to sit and read this over the weekend, and I did read the whole, all of the material provided, being new to this and not being familiar with the past history. I commend everybody that's been involved, councillor Horwath, previous councilor Geraldine Copps for initiating this. I do have a few questions, though. A comment came up earlier if I could ask with regards to removal of the furniture, if any of the furnishings in the summertime have to be removed. Is it the intention that these patios cannot be used through the winter, providing weather conditions?" Marini "The boulevard patios are temporary features and council authorizes them on that basis, so council sets the rules through the occupation agreement, because they are using our road allowance, and there's absolutely no intention whatsoever to allow them to be used in the winter time." Pearson "I wanted to be certain of that Mr. Chairman, but it's only the furniture that has to be removed? The whole fencing and everything has to be removed?" Marini: "Yes. Everything's got to be kept clear. They're allowed to occupy our space subject to our rules within the time frame that council sets." Pearson: "Okay and there is a time frame set? There is a specific date?" Marini: "The agreements will be for each property. That will set the rules." Pearson: "The other question that I want to ask, and the only one just going through here and just reading the continuinty, it mentions the design materials and colours on the awnings and umbrellas. We're trying to keep continuity as far as the visible presentations out there, but in the issue with regards to the perimeter fencing, it says that the outdoor boulevard cafes must have removable metal perimeter fencing and the fences should appear open with inserts that can be used to provide privacy, but there is no stipulation with regards to what can be used. I'm just wondering if that should be included also." Ed Switenky responds that no rules, but they do approve each one. "So far that has not come up that we've seen anything horrendous that doesn't look attractive." Off mic question likely from Pearson. Switenky: "When the application is submitted, the fence design is submitted also and that's reviewed individually for each application."
Mitchell: Asks about harmonization of former municipalities bylaws. "I don't have the amount of outdoor cafes that some of my councilor colleagues do, but they are starting to come into place. And one particular, David I'm sure is aware of in the town or urban area of Binbrook, and I've been told that it is actually breaking the Glanbrook bylaw per se but it's been there for quite a few years. Is there some harmonization of these outdoor patios throughout the new city's urban areas? ... The Bin Restaurant, that is there in that village, is a very nice one, and I'd like to see it continue, legally." Ask when harmonization will take place. Marini notes report is on guidelines related to urban Braille. "The establishment of the patios themselves, only on private property are a zoning bylaw matter, so that will have to be part of the zoning bylaw mandate to review the patio provisions. For instance in the Stoney Creek bylaw you could not have a patio opposite a residential zone, across the street from a residential zone or adjacent to a residential zone." Situation on Concession where patio was only allowed on the front providing the building was between the patio and the residential area. "We have different standards, and that is recognized, and that's a zoning issue. But in terms of the occupation of the road allowance itself, as the standards state, building and zoning regulations still must be adhered to. ." Zoning overrules.
Mitchell: says that "they're probably quite close to legal right now, but it would likely have to be made official through a zoning application, I guess. I will direct the proprietors to that effect."
Horwath: "I'm just so excited about this. . When we're talking about patios that have to be jutted out to provide the clear pathway . is that you can actually purchase these stations that have hot and cold running water tanks . I found them when I was looking for some solutions to our farmers markets problems with public health and the need for running water and refrigeration . so it's an interesting opportunity that instead of having to build a lot of infrastructure on the road allowance, you can actually buy these portable carts that have hot and cold running water, because they have propane tanks, and sinks."
Report moved by Horwath/Merulla. Carried.
8.1 Noise Exemption Request, 135-137 King Street East, Stoney Creek (PD04116) (Ward 9)
This applies to the Stoney Creek Dairy, and specifically the loading and unloading of diesel trucks which are currently in violation of the noise by-law. Letter was distributed at the committee meeting from the lawyers of the adjacent residents. "please be advised that my clients oppose the application for an exemption to the noise by-law" for several reasons including (a) the dairy is already in violation of the noise by-law (b) present noise levels "are unbearable and have caused considerable stress and disturbance", (c) there are pending charges against the dairy for violation of the noise bylaw.
Staff report by Tom Redmond , building inspector. "... we have actually been out there to the location and the problem is not when the trucks are delivering, but when they have to keep the refrigeration units running while they're unloading or loading the trucks. This is not all the trucks. Some of the trucks can be plugged in, but there are some that run off of the diesel fuel. In those cases, the noise bylaw is violated, and we have actually started some proceedings against them. We met in March with the owners of the premises and discussed options in order to mitigate the noise. And is really the neighbour directly adjacent to the loading area that is most adversely affected." Considered building a 12-14 foot concrete block wall but "not very desirable from the standpoint of the abutting neighbour". Conditions of the exemption include that the dairy will limit the loading/unloading activity to weekdays between noon and 4 pm. "They would limit the number of diesel refrigeration type trucks to three per day and that they would also attempt to encourage their trucking contractors and perhaps even pay for the conversion of these refrigeration units to electric power, and they would make available an electrical outlet for the trucks to plug into. We see this as the most desirable option to pursue rather than trying to enclose the structure which would probably be adversely affecting the property directly adjacent. So we're actually recommending this noise exemption, and it will be reviewed annually by staff. It says for a 10-year period, but we will review the operation once a year in order to ensure that they are conforming to the operational conditions that we are requesting."
Merulla: asks if Bruckler in favour of this. [Bruckler has just arrived]
Bruckler "I'm sure that everyone is familiar with the Stoney Creek Dairy and the kind of organization that it is. Regretably they've been caught in this trap here with respect to the noise. . It's a non-conforming use. The approval that was given by the City of Stoney Creek in 1998 with respect to the major renovations that took place here, obviously gives it that particular status. The new owners that have taken over have tried everything within their power to try to mitigate the concern with respect to the noise, and there's no sort of human way possible to totally take care of the noise problem that's there. When I say no human way possible, I'm sure that staff have talked about the noise wall which I'm sure the resident immediately adjacent to the Diary would not appreciate as well, or even if he did an entirely enclosed structure which would be relatively expensive and again would have the same impact with regard to the adjacent resident as a tall or huge noise wall would have as well. I was not aware, councilor McHattie just passed this on to me, the letter from the next door neighbour's solicitor." Asks if staff have had "and direct contact" with the residents "since we've moved forward with this one?" Redmond: "Yes. They've been contacted and you have before you a letter from Mr. and Mrs. Finalli's solicitor that is opposed to the noise exemption. And I believe that Ms. Finalli is here today." Bruckler: "I've not had an opportunity of speaking with Ms. Finalli so perhaps, I know that the Diary is quite anxious to move forward but I would certainly welcome. I know that in the past in 1998 there have been meeting with respect to the neighbourhood. I think that the owners have had meetings with the neighbourhood. I personally have not had any meetings, so perhaps I would welcome that before any decision is made here. While I strongly support the request here, I certainly would like to speak with the residents." Asks that item be tabled for two weeks to allow him time to meet with residents. Merulla offers to move tabling.
Mitchell: The owners have been in contact with me as well and Stoney Creek Dairy has been there for a long long time. I knew the Dawson family personally that started it and its drawn people from all over the province to come to the City of Stoney Creek, so I'd like to see something worked out. But I don't want to see the business slowed down to any effect and I know councillor Bruckler has that concern as well. So my question is - I guess council's a week tomorrow night - if you go tabling to the next Planning meeting and then we're into a month or six weeks and this has been going on a long time. Through you to the ward councillor would a direction to be a week tomorrow night be. Could you get in touch with the residents in that time? How do you feel about the time frame?" Kelly notes that Bruckler had already mentioned to the next committee meeting. Mitchell says that's fine, he hadn't heard that.
Pearson: "I'll echo the sentiments around the table as far as Stoney Creek Dairy. Spent many many afternoons there and I know it brings in people not just from this province. It brings in people from across Canada and even the United States. It's quite a historical area." Question to Redmond: "I understand that a ten foot brick wall would be a very unpleasant site in that neighbourhood, but has any thought been given to the potential of sound muffler mats of some sort on the trucks that come in themselves." Redmond: "No we haven't given any consideration to that, and I'm not certain that it would still meet the requirements. It really would be one of those conditions where you'd have to try it and then see if it meets the bylaw, and then decide what to do after that." Pearson: "I would certainly hope and suggest to Councillor Bruckler in speaking to the owners of the business can raise that. If it can be done, maybe muffling the motor. Is it the whole engine that's running or the motor for the refrigeration unit that might be muffled and that might create some resolution to this problem." Kelly says Bruckler can look into that.
McHattie: "The action that's being to retrofit the diesel truck that most frequently visits the dairy with an electrical plug-in - a $1000 to do that. Is that option available - now additional money, maybe several additional thousands of dollars - but is that option available for all the trucks? . Are there twelve different trucks that might come in there and would you have to retrofit all twelve of the trucks?" Redmond: Says he's not an expert "however in discussions with the owner, it would appear that all of the trucks that deliver to the Stoney Creek Dairy have that option available. However since the Stoney Creek Dairy does not own the trucks, they have no control over what retrofits go on the trucks, but they indicated that they were willing to offer the thousand dollars in order to have the trucks retrofitted. But the decision on whether or not to have them retrofitted would rest with the owners of the truck." McHattie: "That seems like a good partial solution. I guess it'll probably be further discussed in the public meeting."
Motion to table this item to the May 4 th meeting of the committee. Moved by Merulla/McHattie. Carried.
8.2 Adequate and Suitable Heat By-law (PD04117) (City Wide) Enforcement procedures are too slow under the current building standards rules. This bylaw will set a minimum winter temperature of 68F, and allow the City to undertake repairs to the heating system at the expense of the property owner. However, the fines that can be collected will be much smaller.
John Lane makes the staff presentation. "Several standards and licencing officers have approached me over the recent heating season, telling me that they were frustrated with the inadequate bylaw in dealing with inadequate heat, and it was frustrating for them to stand in someone's apartment at 11 at night and the temperatures were in the 40s or 50s and they couldn't do anything. Shortly after that I went to Toronto for a property standards association board meeting and I asked around . how some of the other municipalities were dealing with inadequate heat, and most of them admitted that the property standards bylaw was not the best way of dealing with it, so they steered me in the direction of a Municipal Act bylaw. Shortly after that Councillor Horwath was seen on the six o'clock news one night saying that she would like to see something done about this as well. So all these ingredients together told me that we needed a new bylaw." Worked with other staff to craft the bylaw. "Some of the highlights? It's fast. We can have an officer attend one day, phone the landlord the next day. Say you have no heat, I'm going to give you an order giving you three days. If the heat isn't restored within three days, we can give him one last notice and then hire a contractor to come in and fix the furnace or the boiler or whatever it takes to get the heat re-instated and then charge the landlord or the landowner on his tax bill the cost of any repairs that needed to be made. At the best, I'm looking at maybe a week to a week and a half to restore the heat, whereas the property standards bylaw, we were issuing orders the next day, waiting the standard legislated time of 14 days which could be appealed by the landowner or landlord and then we would have to wait til the next property standards appeal committee meeting, and then they typically give more time. That's what that committee does. So when time is of the essence, when people are freezing in their apartments, especially very young or very old or ill people, we definitely needed something that would be a faster acting bylaw."
Kelly: "Three days sounds like warp speed compared to some of the other restrictions we've had."
Merulla: "This is one of the most progressive bylaws I've seen come forward in a long time. The dates were set arbitrarily between time frames and seasons and I was always baffled by the fact that you could have a cold day in May that could be equivalent to November, but as a result of the legislation there's nothing anyone could do. [the new bylaw covers September 1 to May 31]. Defers to Horwath to move and offers to second motion.
Horwath: "I'm so excited. What a day of great things. First the patio guidelines and now this. I'm thrilled." Congratulates staff. Moves the motion.
McHattie: "This is a great thing. . The November to May period is definitely a crazy idea, especially given the climate change concerns . where we have these wide spikes in temperatures. What was it 20 degrees a day ago and almost down to zero last night, so it can happen in almost any month it seems, or certainly the shoulder seasons are sneaking forward and backward." Asks about rules that require temporary space heaters until repair is accomplished. Lane: "The standards and licencing officers will typically work with the landlords and landowners to ensure that any interim measure that needs to be taken will be done. The purpose of excluding temporary space heating devices from the adequate and suitable heat is that was how many landlords were dealing with it. They'd say here's a space heater, and then the tenant would have to pay the electrical bill to cover the cost of heating the unit. That would be an option, and I can investigate it we can have something put in there to address that, to say that you're going to have provide at least something to get the temperature high enough for a temporary basis." Kelly suggest that be at the landlord's cost and McHattie agrees. McHattie pursues further. Lane: "Our standards and licencing officers can be very persuasive sometimes."
Pearson: Thanks staff. "This past winter has been my first season of getting calls from residents who had no heat in their buildings and I commend staff who attended to this and were diligent in following through. The timelines were absolutely horrendous to deal with as far as current regulations, and I think it's imperative that we are maintaining that landlords should be responsible for providing this service where it is their responsibility. Hopefully, this will solve a lot of the problems. . Do we keep a log of annual calls that come in so that we know if there's an ongoing pattern of certain landlords in certain areas?" Lane: "Yes, our tracking system would keep track of that. We know who the offenders are." Pearson: "I'm glad to hear that because I think it's important to have a handle on what's happening out there.".
Motion approved unanimously.
McHattie: "There was a motion passed on October 29, 2003 by Councillor Caplan, seconded by Councillor Collins, a bylaw to licence student residents as lodging houses. I'm afraid that has fallen by the wayside with the close of that council and the start of the new council". Asks where it's at. Coveyduck : "That's still on the work program and I don't have an exact date. . I know it hasn't fallen off the table completely but it is on the work program. I can get back to you with a timeframe.." McHattie asks that it be put on the outstanding business list.
8.3 Re-establishment of Citizen Volunteer Committees Reporting to the Planning and Economic Development Committee (City Wide) (CL04003(c)) Four committees are Ainslie Wood Westdale Secondary Plan Executive Committee, Agricultural and Rural Affairs Advisory Committee, Ancaster Village Core Advisory Committee, Central Hamilton Advisory Committee. The decision on the Agricultural and Rural Affairs Advisory Committee was tabled for two weeks on request of councillor Ferguson. Rest of motion approved. Clerk noted that the committee is asked by the motion to appoint members to these committees. However, various councillors are already attending these committees in an advisory capacity.
General Information: In announcing this section, chair Kelly notes "Councillor Braden isn't here" [Braden is not on this committee, but often attends.]
McHattie: Asks for update on item Q in the outstanding business list - the CPR community advisory panel which was supposed to be set up in mid-April. Coveyduck: "We are working on it, but it isn't ready yet. We are behind on that. With staff resources we haven't been able to do all the work that is required". Going to involve the clerk's office in setting up the committee. McHattie asks to meet with Coveyduck on this.
Mitchell: Notes greenbelt freeze. "But we have this blob in Stoney Creek which got talked about, which is the village of Winona. . Winona has a zoning that has a blob around it that says it is in the urban area but that urban area does not have any secondary plans with it, at all, for the town to buy into, or to have meetings over, or to know where commercials going, or where everything's going. So it would be just an official request that I'd like to have the clerk note. Is it possible to go forward then and have community meetings on that secondary plan on that Winona area that's got that blob? Because we've just been shut down by the province for all the rest of it. And the Winona area itself is a concern, and the people would like to know what's going where and how. And it is actually, I guess now, inside the urban boundary, with no plans in place whatsoever for that urban area which shows anything, where commercial should go, where this should go, that should go. So those residents in that urban town are concerned. So how do I go? Do I put in an official request for say the 2005 budget? How do we get a set of secondary plans developed for that community of Winona?" Coveyduck: Notes application to NEC but Mitchell says he's not referring to that. Coveyduck says method is just to ask staff when it can be put on the work program. "I can tell you right now it definitely won't happen in 2004. We have a number of other secondary plans that are underway and we wouldn't even be able to get to it. What we could do is look at our work plan and say we could start it in 2005, 2006 or whatever, and if you feel that's too far out then you'd have to look at other resources to have that done. Typically what we try to do is we also work with the developers or the landowners in the areas that can also initiate the secondary plan process and do a lot of the background work as part of that." So send in a request and we'll let you know when it can happen.
Mitchell: "I'm familiar with a set of secondary plans that took a few years to develop for Binbrook, and one for Mt. Hope, but there never has been any for Winona. And they were going to be sort of incorporated into this urban boundary expansion from Fruitland Road down to Fifty Road. But what I've learned through this process is that Winona always did have a zoned urban area, but it never has had an appropriate zoned secondary plan. To me that's out of whack here. Something's got left behind." Offers to move motion to get in 2005, noting "its probably 10-15 years overdue. Things shouldn't be going forward. This council hung its hat on a World Education college expansion on the fact that the secondary plans weren't done. And they aren't. And that was a legitimate excuse to not go forward with anything further at that facility. So I would like to see the plans for that urban area go forward. If that's 2005, so be it, but it's overdue."
Kelly: Notes budget constraints. "Planning staff, especially in this city, is one of the most understaffed. We've got problems with planning here with too much work and not enough people to do it. And as we've been told, just about every planning department in every major city in Ontario is going through the same thing. It's hard to find to people to work in these departments these days. There seems to be a real shortage of qualified people. . We've got a department that's pretty overtaxed. All I can tell you make the application, I'm sure staff will do their best. But until people start falling out of the sky saying, yeah, we can do that for you. And we already had the debate last week about whether we should force staff to hire someone outside. There's an added cost to that too."
Mitchell: Suggests that some unallocated reserves in suburbs might be available to hire a planner for this work. "And then it wouldn't end up being a tax burden and it could go forward." Request to Coveyduck to look into whether such funds exist.
McHattie: ... "I guess this is the Winona Settlement Lands, and I would suggest there is still some debate as to whether it's inside or outside the urban boundary." . Asks about typical process, and when do we anticipate this will get to the NEC. Coveyduck: "The specific application that you dealt with I guess about a month ago, that is in the NEC process right now. Those particular lands, and whatever comes out of that process, I guess, the City Council will make some determination. If they feel that they are not going to approve that application for that specific area that we talked about, then we'll be bringing a recommendation back that our Official Plan be amended to reflect that. But for the rest of the Winona area that is inside the urban boundary, to do any secondary plan process, and what we have been doing most recently, and Waterdown is a good example, is where landowners are getting together and they actually fund the secondary plan process, they work with staff, they do all the background studies and work, and then staff facilitates moving it through the system and we review all the studies, etc. So what we are trying to do is put the onus on the landowners to get the studies underway, because there's a lot of work in terms of transportation, watershed planning, as well as the detailed layout of the secondary plan."
McHattie: "Are there lands in Winona . I know there's that piece that we were going to move ahead on and OMAF [Ontario Ministry of Agriculture and Food] decided to appeal that to the OMB and then we had the greenbelt legislation that froze that effectively. Are there other lands within the Winona settlement area, or other lands in Winona that are outside of the settlement area, that can move ahead independent of greenbelt or the OMB challenge?" Coveyduck: "I don't have a map in front of me, but my recollection is that there are some lands that are inside the urban boundary, that wouldn't be affected by the legislation, that could be looked at."
McHattie: "Does it make sense to move ahead with the secondary plan, given the uncertainty of the greenbelt. . I'm just trying to get a sense of the timing when this should happen. ." Coveyduck: "I actually don't have enough knowledge in terms of the ownership patterns of that area to give you an asnwer to that right now." McHattie: "I guess my concern is that there are a number of different things happening in Winona, some of which is outside our control . so I'm trying to understand that as a member of the planning committee and wanting, like we all do, for planning to proceed on an organized manner. I'm not sure how the secondary plan request relates to that at this point. . It's the kind of thing you'd want to have a presentation on - on the whole Winona story, then you can say there's a couple of parcels in there that should move ahead and what do we do to help that." Kelly suggests this be put on the committee's 'to do' list, but suggests not going further because staff didn't come prepared for this. "We're kind of waiting on the NEC, to see what their response is going to be, and then staff will respond one way or the other. Remember about a month ago we had a very extensive discussion here about this item, and essentially threw the ball back in their court. . You may be right councillor. It may be a little premature to even ask for a secondary plan at this stage and practically it may not happen for another two years anyway. Even if we said start it today, it may be two years." Coveyduck: "If we did get a request to do that, we would certainly not initiate such a process unless we thought it would make sense. We would come back and say it's premature or we can accommodate it in 2005, or we really shouldn't be doing it til 2007 because all these other things have to take place. But we would be bringing that back to committee before we would actually initiate anything."
Mitchell: "Just so some of my council colleagues understand, I fundamentally disagree with leaving it to the landowners which might mean leaving it to the developers to produce the secondary plans. That's not historically what I've been used to in any way shape or form in the Glanbrook municipality previously. It was done by public meetings of the local people. My reason for bringing it forward today was the concern from the local existing Winona residents who have lived there for many years. And now they've seen a Tim Hortons go in and creating all kinds of traffic grief. And they got an old Royal Bank at the corner that's maybe going to be torn down and something else has to be built there or whatever. They want their input to this town and we don't have anything but little one-off applications coming in here. And to my mind, some of these one-off applications are destroying things. And the local grassroots people want to know the design. And they'd like to have a say in their town. Those are the ones I'm bringing forward here. It's the people that have been there for 50 or 100 years watching this happen, and there's no uniformity, or no plans, or no anything. And it would seem like every time an application comes forward to do this or that, it gets the go-ahead. And it isn't growing in any kind of organized fashion at all, for that town. And the townspeople are after their councillor to say, let's have these meetings, let's get on with how it should look where they are. Not outside in the greenfields that we're going into that I can fundamentally disagree with, but the town itself, because things are getting older. There's going to be a need for new things, design layouts and so on. That's where I'm coming from."
Kelly: "I understand that. I think you're debating the merits of a secondary plan. I don't think anybody's going to debate you on that. I think Ms. Coveyduck's already explained to you why it hasn't been done yet. So we're kind of going in circles here."
McHattie: "Not to carry the conversation on too much further, but it sounds like what we're talking about here is a neighbourhood plan. A secondary plan is when development is envisaged and you want to make sure that development happens . But from a proactive perspective, do we need to look at whether there's a neighbourhood plan for that area. If there's not, there should be, and I no there's a big long list of neighbourhood plans across the city that have to be done as well. I had a meeting with Strathcona neighbourhood, citizens of my area, last night and they'd like to get a neighbourhood plan done for their area as well understandably. But I really think that it's going to be difficult to get it moving quickly given the work plan that the planning department has. What we're looking at some kind of a community-driven community plan that I could actually initiate as a councillor, and probably use staff resources, but only as a one-on, one-off instead of a full blown Ainslie Wood Westdale secondary plan, or neighbourhood plan, that takes a long period of time to do, like a 2-3 year project. So that's something I'd like to seek professional planning help on and I talked to Bill Janzen about this. Is there sort of a different level of neighbourhood plan that we can do which is less time intensive and resource intensive for staff, because there's real limits to what they can do? You've articulated that Mr. Chair given the budget issues. But I agree with councillor Mitchell that there's a need for the community to have a say in what they'd like to have happen there. And if there are changes happening, there is a need for a strong neighbourhood plan that gives direction. So that's something I'm going to be pursuing through the Ontario Professional Planners Institute just to say: 'is there anything out there that allows us to do a lower level grassroots neighbourhood plan which ultimately of course would have to be approved by people around this table, and given a recognized status. The alternative as far as I can tell is to wait perhaps a considerable length of time until it gets into the workplan, which citizens obviously don't want that in a particular area where they are interested in. It sounds like that's what councillor Mitchell is saying - that citizens want some kind of a overall plan for this area." Asks for comment. Coveyduck: "I've actually had some discussions with Bill Janssen on that type of a model, and I recall about 3-4 years ago at an American Planning Association conference there had been some examples of that, what was done in the States, and Bill was quite receptive to that. Now I'm not sure if he's had an opportunity to put any parameters around that, but certainly having more of it done at the grassroots level, having some staff involvement but not to the same extent as we have now, I think is the way we're going to have to go. Because with the work program we have, there's no way we'll get to all of these neighbourhood plans, and a lot of them are in need of review. I think it's a matter of really getting the community to narrow down what the issues are and start focusing on the issues and working towards that. So the answer to your question I think is yes, that's something we can look at." McHattie asks if this can come back to the committee. Kelly says they will be in Washington this week at the APA and can nose around to see what other communities are doing and then have further discussion.
Mitchell: ". a neighbourhood plan is somewhat different than the development of a town plan. When you drive down the QEW or Highway 8 you'll see a town sign that says Winona. It's a town. There's a lot of neighbour plans in this city. I don't even know where those neighbourhoods are, but a lot of people in this world know where Winona is because it's been a town for a long long time. So it's somewhat different. No disrespect, councillor McHattie, but it's somewhat different than a neighbourhood plan what has to be done for that town. And we have to understand the differences here in this council chamber together.."
Coveyduck: "On the deferred business list, 112 Mohawk Road, if we could get a motion to remove it. The applicant has actually withdrawn his request and is going to a different location." Moved and carried.