Present: Pearson; Merulla (out 4x for 24 min; left at 11:49); Mitchell; Ferguson (out 2x for 27 min); McHattie (out 1x for 3 min); Whitehead; Bratina (out 1x for 19 min); Kelly (arrived 10 am, left at 10:31 am).

Also present: Samson (out 1 x for 6 min; left at 12:06 )

Media: Mann (CHML - left at 10:30 am ); McIntyre (Spectator); Werner ( Brabant - arrived 9:56 )

CATCH: Don

Agenda changes: Four additional delegation requests.

Councillor Ferguson declared a conflict of interest on item 5.3. "I'm a relative of the owner of the mill [Ancaster Old Mill]."

DELEGATION REQUESTS

4.1  M. Fratric, 162 Coker Road, respecting request for municipal water connection, outside the Urban Boundary

Whitehead reads item title then says: "Members of committee, city policy does not permit municipal water connections outside the urban boundary and I think this should be referred to staff with direction to meet with the citizen. Councillor Pearson do you have a motion?"

Pearson : "Thank you. I have a motion with regards to this item being moved by myself, seconded by councillor Mitchell, that the delegation request by the Fratric family to address committee regarding the request for a water hookup outside the urban boundary be received as the proposal conflicts with the city policy, and that the matter be referred to the public health department with direction that staff meet on site with the Fratrics to discuss the use and operations of cisterns and other appropriate measures."

Mitchell : "This has been going on for a couple of months and there's just no way that feasibly we can see expanding the water there, so to have the public health department go down and work with them - and I'd like to meet on site with the public health department as well. So rather than have them come here, the answers from planning and from public works have been sent to the family - and get public health involved and see if we can accomplish it through some other fashion."

Bratina : "Mr Chair can you tell me often this is done extraordinarily, outside the boundary?" Whitehead : "It's my understanding that they were done one-off on the old two-tier regional-city system. Maybe we can have staff respond to that question specifically?" No response. "The question is how often on one-off have we dealt with expanding water service outside the urban boundary?" Answer off-mic. Bratina : "One or two a year? I couldn't hear you, you're mic wasn't on." Staff : "Yes, the time that I've been around I've seen one or two a year." Bratina : "So there's lots of precedence for this." Whitehead : "Yeah, there is, there was. But I want to make it clear. John [staff member] can you give a time frame as to when the last time something like this has been approved?" No answer from staff but Ferguson says: "One done last year and the proponent paid all costs."

Mitchell : "That would be much the way I would prefer it to allow this family to hook up. My dilemma in my ward, with all the whole ward around the boundary, is that once you okay one. We've said no to several other ones, because they're dead-end lines; they're not loop systems. So I would vote . to extend it to these people because they are constituents of mine. But when you have both our departments saying no for health reasons and so on and so forth, that's where we thought we'd get the health department involved. But if we're going to continue with one-offs, then I would most definitely support the one-off to support my constituent as it has happened in other parts around the city."

Whitehead says there's "a liability issue with respect to the servicing of the land, because of the spaghetti lines. It still becomes a city responsibility but it's a dangerous precedent for the city to set. In fact we have a policy to prevent that from happening, so I need to understand what the exception is to that policy, not just the political will of exempting it at council." Mallard : "Quite frankly, the instances that I'm aware, it's been very rare that this has occurred. I believe the reference that councillor Ferguson is referring to was the official plan amendments and agreements that were introduced regarding an extension for Oakrun Bakery for the existing operation only. And . you would need a report and application for official plan amendment . not a simple council resolution to extend it." Whitehead : "I think that provides clarification. That's perfect."

Ferguson : "It wasn't for residential purposes. In fact, the proponent had to put in fire hydrants to help with fire protection." Mitchell : "In the regional days there was four spaghetti lines run down Twenty Road off of Miles Road and they paid for it 100% themselves as one-offs, and there was a request for a fifth one. But once we do the fifth one, we're going to get to the sixth one, and maybe you put the proper line in that should be one good loop rather than five or six little lines running down the road that are all our responsibility once we get them in. And that family was told no. So somewhere through this we need to have some kind of agreement. If that's the case that the official plan amendment. So when I go on site with the health department that it needs to be fully explained to them. They do not have a cistern right now and I know an awful lot of people in my word do have cisterns and pay to have their water trucked to their home." Whitehead notes a motion has been moved and seconded. Carried. [ 7:35 ]

Other four delegation requests accepted without discussion.

CONSENT ITEMS

5.1 Correspondencefrom the City of Mississauga Respecting Bill 169, the Transportation Statute LawAmendment Act, 2005 (PED05157) (City Wide) Approved without discussion.

5.2 2006Ancaster Village Core Advisory Committee Budget Submission (PED05162) (Ward12) Approved without discussion.

5.3 CommercialHeritage Improvement and Restoration Program (CHIRP) (CHIRP2005-001) MatchingGrant to Re-Shingle the Roof of 548 Old Dundas Road (Ancaster Old Mill),Ancaster, in the City of Hamilton (PED05174) (Ward12)

Ferguson earlier declared a conflict of interest on item 5.3. "I'm a relative of the owner of the mill."

Merulla : ".I understand the commercial heritage improvement and restoration program was initiated in 2004 . but I know how successful this particular restaurant is. Is there any criteria included in the application form where we can separate not for profit, for example, from profit initiated, such as at this location. . Nothing against the proponents or the initiative, but I can assure you that that's a significant amount of money from a taxpayers standpoint but probably not from their standpoint and their bottom line anyway. So has there been any discussion of separating not-for-profit from for-profit type of commercial initiatives." McCabe : "No there is not criteria like that. This applies to all commercial and industrial properties that are designated under the Heritage Act, you know as an incentive, as an objective of the municipality to maintain and promote heritage conservation in this municipality. And a matching grant after the lowest bid." Merulla asks if there are other municipalities that make the distinction. McCabe says no. Whitehead says premise is to assist preservation of heritage buildings. Pearson says she will support it, but raises question about why an 18-year-old cedar shingled roof needs replacement. "Cedar shingles should last longer than that." Asks if maybe they are addressing problems they have created to have them becoming worn "in such a short time span". McCabe : Doesn't know the details of why "but they have, and they have been leaking". Approved.

5.4 InformationReport: City of Hamilton Committee of Adjustment (Urban) Denial of Consent/Land Severance Application HM/B-05:103 (Duc Le&Annie Lan-Anh Le, Owners), 88Forsyth Avenue North - Supported by the Planning and Economic Development Department (PED05176) (Hamilton) (Ward1)

McHattie : "What's going on here is there's a larger lot with a house already on it, and they'd like to add a second house on that lot. And the understanding that I have is a student house would be packed into that area. And there already is, as you know, an overabundance of student houses in that area. The density is out of whack in terms of student houses versus family houses. And this adds to that problem . Committee of adjustment did deny this application and planning staff have a different perspective. On page five of the report, there's alternatives for consideration." Moves to support option one to have city legal services defend the Committee of Adjustment decision. Cost is $2,500 to $5000. "This is THE issue in Westdale and unless we deal with some of these new student houses coming in, the work that I'm doing to relocate student housing in general onto the main arterials and out of the neighbourhood, is going to fail." Asks for committee's support. Seconded by Merulla. Carried.

PUBLIC HEARINGS AND DELEGATIONS

6.1 Application for a Modification in Zoning for the Property Located at 640 Queenston Road (Hamilton) (PED05168) (Ward 5) This is to permit an animal hospital/veterinarian practice. Approved without discussion. Staff report not presented. Pearson asked if health department would ensure safety of fast food facility next door and was told it would.

6.2 Application to Amend City of Hamilton Zoning By-law No. 6593 for Lands Located at 80 Bancroft Street (Hamilton) (PED05166) (Ward 5) To allow offices as an additional permitted use on these industrial lands. Staff report not presented. No discussion. Approved.

6.3 Applications for an Official Plan Amendment and Change in Zoning for the Properties Located at 50 and 52 Fraser Road, and Part of 57 Argyle Avenue (Hamilton) (PED05159)(Ward 4) This applies to Visca's on Barton Street across from the Centre Mall. One citizen asks to speak to issue so staff report is provided. Changing zoning from residential to commercial to allow expansion of Visca's and provide additional parking. The citizen's concerns are about parking and the location of food garbage containers that are currently at the back of adjacent residences. She notes that Visca's advertises a hall holding 400 people but only has 22 parking spaces, and she believes that the arrangement to allow parking at the Centre Mall isn't always used by its patrons. She has no driveway so parking on the street is probematic for her. Committee agrees to require the relocation of the garbage bins. Staff will also ask owner to more strongly emphasize parking is at Centre Mall.

6.4 Applications for a Draft Plan of Subdivision and to Change the Zoning on the Lands Known as 1350 and 1354 Upper Wellington Street, Hamilton (PED05169) (Ward7) The proponent is 712176 Ontario Ltd (Joe Di Cienzo) to construct 19 single family homes. Location is between the Linc and Stone Church Road . The staff report by Paul Moore. ".The draft plan of subdivision has been amended by changing the road pattern. They originally proposed a cul-de-sac coming straight in, and has been modified to a future crescent which would eventually extend to the north and come back out." This increased the number of lots from 17 to 19. "The applicant is currently in negotiations with adjacent landowners to have the lands made available for the extension of street A. . The draft plan of subdivision has been redlined revised to incorporate larger temporary turning circles. The applicant had provided a 10 metre temporary turning circle and engineering standards require an 18 metre temporary turning circle so we've redlined the plan ." This makes three lots unbuildable until the extension of the crescent. "Further this application represents an opportunity for residential infilling, making use of existing services and providing additional housing opportunities in the Jerome neighbourhood". [36:05] Sergio Manchia [the agent for the proponent] thanks staff for expediting the development. ".as mentioned we are working with our adjacent owner/developer to the south, attempting to bring along the services required and negotiating whatever terms are necessary to proceed with the development of the subject lands. . the term here used of infill because this whole area has a great deal of potential development opportunities although due to the landowner, the proximate landowners it's a very difficult process. In addition there are some servicing challenges. And with regards to those servicing challenges, your staff have worked very closely with my client, Mr DiCienzo . and we were able to establish, basically, an engineering . for services once we do have agreement with our neighbour to the south." Notes issues with servicing of 3 lots on Upper Wellington "if we are given the services and we do agree with Silvestri investments to bring the service along, in addition we have negotiated with the public school board for acquisition of these lands, the cost component of bringing only these lots forward becomes a hefty one. Therefore this turning circle, and the standards that apply today, wouldn't allow us to bring on these three lots. In addition we'd be building a one tier road for the majority of this street. At this point in time I wish to ask the committee their indulgence in permitting a standard that is not within policy, but I'll stress that it has been done before. It is still a turnaround and in our view an acceptable turnaround. Once again this would allow us to bring these three lots to the development stage.." Also says the servicing break is near here and "we don't know when this will come on stream - hopefully sooner than later. Traditionally what happens in these cases, once development proceeds, everything around it tends to come to the forefront, and we hope that happens. So therefore this road would be coming forth. In sum we request the indulgence of the committee to permit us to go a reduced right-of-way versus the redline revision that has been proposed by staff." Whitehead asks for comment from staff. McCabe: "Sergio's quite right. The committee and council has allowed these on a number of occasions on small, not to long of a dead end situation. Our standard since 2003 has been the 18 metre radius. You know, it is an operational thing, but the former city of Hamilton allowed these quite frequently in terms of temporary cul-de-sacs. So it's not in accordance with our standards. We haven't recommended it, but the committee has had that preference, on some occasions, for these shorter dead end situations." Bratina: "Tim, what's the issue of how big that radius should be?" McCabe: "The issue is that the plows and the garbage trucks have to do a three point turn or back up a bit. They can't do a full sweep so it becomes . delays in public works equipment." Whitehead: "What's the implications for home owners that build there? I just went through this situation two weeks ago and" interrupted by McCabe: "No, it's not the same as the issue you had, councillor chairman. What they're asking for is to build that radius, the smaller radius, within the road allowance He argued that the cul-de-sac will be eliminated soon because of further development on adjacent lands. In this he is strongly supported by Bill Kelly [who arrives just before this item starts and leaves when it finishes]. Pearson and Mitchell also speak in support of Manchia. A larger turning radius will mean delay of development of three adjacent lots. It is city policy to require the large radius to allow service vehicles - garbage, snow plows, etc. - to turn around rather than having to back out of the street. Committee approves Manchia's request.

6.5 Application for Approval of a Revised Draft Approved Plan of Subdivision, "Seabreeze" (formerly "Trillium Estates"), and Change in Zoning for 45 Seabreeze Crescent (Stoney Creek) (PED05160) (Ward 11)

6.6 Applicationfor a Modification in Zoning for Lands Located at 937 Centre Road (Flamborough)(PED05167) (Ward 15) "to permit an automobile leasing business within the existing building and an associated outdoor vehicle display area (maximum 25 vehicles)". Approved without discussion.

6.7 Applicationto Amend Ancaster Zoning By-law No. 87-57 to Permit 12 Condominium Single Detached Dwellings for Lands Located at 195-201 Wilson Street West (Ancaster)(PED05175) (Ward 12)

PRESENTATIONS

None

DISCUSSION ITEMS

8.1 Applications for Approval of a Draft Plan of Subdivision and Zoning By-law Amendment by 998153 Ontario Inc. (G. Schuit) for Lands Located at 114 Pleasant Avenue (Dundas) (PED05144) (Ward 13)

(Additional Information, as directed by Committee at their meeting of October 24, 2005, to follow)

MOTIONS

NOTICES OF MOTIONS

GENERAL INFORMATION

11.1 Sign By-law Review (From Outstanding Business List, due November 15, 2005, no copy)

11.2 M and M Tables (From Outstanding Business List, due November 15, 2005 , no copy)

11.3 By-law for Registry of group homes (From Outstanding Business List, due November 15, 2005 , no copy)

11.4 Amendment to the Second Hand Goods By-law (From Outstanding Business List, due November 1, 2005 , no copy)

11.5 Business Ambassador Programme (From Outstanding Business List, due November 15, 2005 , no copy)

11.6 Clean up of CNR lands (From Outstanding Business List, due November 15, 2005 , no copy)

Further report/transciption may be added later.